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Author Topic: F23 Conversions by Aaron88 update  (Read 12621 times)
aaron88
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« on: June 26, 2012, 10:34:24 am »

I was just about to PM you to find out if the development was done yet,.....F23 conversion.

Keep me posted  Evil

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I'm just welding up the fixture now to make engine cradles.  I'm making one for Tibs out of aluminum with new control arms (bumpsteer delete).

After that I'm working on the F23 stuff.  Transmission cable bracket, shifter extension bracket, and trans mounts.  So far I only have plans for brackets to fit the 2000-2002 F23 with metric bellhousing.  But as I do custom I can accommodate any configuration.

There may be a slight delay as I have to make the brake press first since I can't find a heavy gauge used one.

Aaron

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Dan
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« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2012, 01:09:38 pm »

I have found two different styles of mounting points on the F23s so far and both were the style with our bell housings so may want to check into that a bit.
The solution so far has been for the use of a longer shift cable and a 5 speed Getrag select cable and have the shift cable wrap around very close to the strut tower to get the needed angle for the factory shifter mechanism.
A set up that allows for the cables to both approach the tranny together over the top would be a much better set up and could then use the stock fiero cables.
I have some photos of how I did my last set of mounts if they will help give you some ideas on mounting and will see if I can get a photo of the other F23 mounting points I found on one at the wreckers.
The one I have prepped for my car is using a 2002 cavalier bell housing and an 09 tranny with the 405 gear set that should work pretty well, that is if I can get any traction.
Either way I do like the way the F23 works up against a healthy 3800SC compared to the Fiero getrag. Dan
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aaron88
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« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2012, 01:47:48 pm »

I wonder if one is chevy and the other pontiac?  I have two bellhousings but I didn't really check the second one that close.  I'll do that, being one is sunfire and the other cav.

I'm doing some things different that anything else I've seen so far.  I will be using stock cables.

Thanks Dan

Aaron

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« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2012, 02:43:08 pm »

You are right one was a sunfire the other a cavalier.
One other thing I noticed is the Fiero 5 speed shifter is able to have enough movement of the select cable but it is tight for either 1st or reverse. I was thinking making the arm in the shifter for the select a little longer to give more cable movement making it a lot easier to make up the brackets and arms at the tranny end.
I have had quite a few people so far asking about doing an f23 swap in their Fieros so there is definitely a demand for it an for good mounts and shifter brackets.
For the speedo you just need to use the same speed sensor buffer circuit used in 3800/4T65E swaps to make the signal compatible with the Fiero speedometer due to its 24000PPM signal but not sure what would be the best route for F23 swaps using the stock Fiero engines. Dan
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Fred
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« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2013, 12:14:12 am »

Hi guys,

First: Bump!  Wink

Second: Updates?  Smiley

Third: I will be looking into the F23 swap as soon as I'm back from the 30th. That means reading lots of documentation, gathering parts and preparing my swap. I will be switching from an TH125C Automatic mated to a stock 2.8L, to an F23 Manual using the same stock 2.8L.

I'm looking for some good mounts and shifter brackets. I got a set from FOY (FriendOfYours) on Pennock, though I am worried about the quality of the welds and the overall design.

Dan: I know you were making some, but I also saw on Pennock that you had a waiting list and that as soon as you are done you would re-evaluate if you stay in business.

Aaron: I don't know where you're at in this project. I don't know if you have a design in mind or if you started something. Do you have any updates?

I had my fair share of trouble with my car, dropped the craddle too many times for my liking. This is why I would like a good design that will keep my transmission stable and good shifter brackets that will ensure smooth and easy shifts in each gear. I don't want to break my head to figure my own bracket design since this will take me lots of time. Now I don't know who will be able to provide that considering there are no more seller and no more design on sale at this moment.

Please let me know where you guys are up to. Smiley
Fred
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aaron88
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« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2013, 02:57:42 pm »

I just thought I'd point something out for those that are planning to tackle this before I get my shit together.  Have a look at the following two photographs:

This is the Getrag 282 transmission



This is the metric F23 transmission out a 2002 sunfire


Have a close look at the shaft seal on both transmissions.  Notice that the F23 transmission has an offset while the 282 is flush with the bell-housing mounting surface.  The F23 differential is pushed 10.5 mm closer to the right side (passenger side).  I haven't confirmed that the width of the differential is identical but I heard that it was (I'll confirm later).

What this means is that you have two choices.  One is that you center the differential by moving your motor over 10.5 mm towards the <edit> "left (drivers side)" and the other is that you allow the transmission to be off center by 10.5 mm.  The latter choice is not the end of the world, I ran my Northstar that way for 15'000 km without issue.  It's not ideal though.

Obviously this is one of the problems that people have been having getting their custom transmission mounts to work with their existing motor mounts.  Food for thought.  Keep it in mind.

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« Last Edit: August 18, 2013, 07:58:47 pm by aaron88 » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2013, 06:54:27 pm »

Also the F23 has the axles coming out of the tranny approximately one inch closer to the engine block same as the F40 so the engine needs to be moved one inch closer to the trunk to keep the axles lined up straight with the hubs. Dan
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aaron88
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« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2013, 11:35:47 pm »

Good point Dan.  This is where it gets complicated for some motor swaps.  Me for example: I simply don't have the room to move the motor back.  I could tilt the motor, but I don't think that's the rout I'm going to go.  So I will have a little extra axle miss-alignment, plus a bit more on top of that because I lowered my stance.  Fortunately this is a much more forgiving direction to miss-align an axle.  For better ware characteristics a universal joint or CV joint needs miss-alignment on the shaft so that the bearings move enough for proper lubrication.  There is a lot of debate as to what the best angel is but let's say that between 5 to 7 degrees is ideal.


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« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2013, 02:22:15 am »

By keeping in mind I'm using a stock V6 Engine:

By moving the whole drive-train 10.5mm to the left and moving it approximately 25.4mm forward, would that cause other problems around the engine bay? (ie. exhaust alignment, manifold too close to the firewall...) If so, would it be acceptable only to move it left and neglect the "forward" movement? Or is it a distance too important to be neglected?

Basically, I need to relocate the Axle Shaft seal at the same location as the getrag one. Is that right?

At this point I'm not afraid making my own mounts, I just want to know all the principles and theory on how it can affect parts longevity and performance to make it the best setup possible for me. It's something that is completely new to me therefore I'm asking many questions about it.

As I understand now, I need to move the whole drive-train in both the "x" and "y" plane, but is there any other variable/calculation that I might be missing?

Thanks a lot for the help guys!
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Dan
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« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2013, 05:55:40 pm »

On the 88 cradle it is very easy to move the drive train an inch closer to the trunk wall but on an 84 to 87 the cradle gets in the way on the driver's side where it bends in on top for the rear inner tie rod mounting point so you can't really move the drive train rear ward very far with out either hitting or getting very close to the tranny hitting the cradle at this point so on an 84 to 87 I would focus more on keeping the axles even lengths side to side then moving the drive train back. Dan
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aaron88
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« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2013, 07:50:44 pm »

The only direction I think you should consider at all is the left right alignment.  Keeping the motor forward will be better for weight distribution and really won't do anything to hurt the CV angle.  It's such a minor alteration to the angel on the CV joint and you want some angle anyway to help with lubrication and cooling.

Some modification might be required to the exhaust but not much.  You could probably get away without any at all.  Unless you are using a swapped motor in which case the whole thing is custom anyway.

I just noticed that in my post above with the photos that I mentioned to move the motor toward the right.  That is the wrong direction.  You have to move the motor toward the left (drivers side).  I guess that's what happens when you don't get any sleep.  I'll make the correction in the post above to read correctly.

Aaron

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« Last Edit: August 18, 2013, 07:57:33 pm by aaron88 » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2013, 09:43:17 am »

Oh so moving it forward is only because of weight distribution? I thought it was initially for clearance purposes.

For the actual mounts, what are the advantages/disadvantage of using rubber or even poly mounts? I've seen people deleting those rubber/poly so that the mount bolts right on the craddle. From my point of view, it seams like by bolting it straight up there will be lots more vibrations but a much stiffer drivetrain. Then I guess my question is, is it worth it and does it really make such a difference?

Thank you,
Fred
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Dan
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« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2013, 10:03:19 am »

I still prefer rubber mounts on engine and tranny mounts, add in a good dog bone and you are ok. There is some engine movement but nothing harsh or damaging and the vibrations stay away from the inside of the car.
Poly dog bone is not bad just a little vibration and poly mounts will be even more but soilid mounting will shake the crap out of you.
Mount brackets for the F23 are very easy to make right on the tranny sitting on the cradle to make them straight. I use 1/4 steel for all my mounts and brackets. Dan
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aaron88
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« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2013, 11:49:56 pm »

Dido on the rubber.  If you want poly suspension or even heim...giver.  Road harshness you can dampen with the air in your tires (as in run lower tire pressure).  But engine specific vibration you want to dampen with rubber.  If you want a stiff but dampened motor you could double the size of each rubber mount or number of mounts so that the energy transfers as fast as you want it to.  There just no reason to have engine harshness.  Rubber does a good job to dampen the specific natural frequency the engine produces, specifically 1000 to 6000 Hz.  Personally I like using control arm bushings as engine and tranny mounts.  Allow vibration movements easily but are fully restrained and don't allow large movements.  They can be found cheap and can be used (the same bushing) everywhere.

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« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2013, 01:31:07 am »

An other question. When you take the measurements (The one that decide to move everything for 10.5mm), did you used the distance between the face of the axles seals and the face where the engine and transmission are meeting?

Thanks again for your patience, both of you.  Wink
Fred
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