what about the 3800 CAMARO engine?

[fiero308]

after endless hours of prevaricating over the 3.4 twin cam and the 3800 SC as potential replacement options, with a bit of 3.4 ohv thrown into the mix for variety (and largely because of its relative simplicity), I am now wondering what the 'newer' 3.8 ohv engine in the camaros and firebirds is like?  Does anyone know much about it?  Specifically, is it a larger-again version of the good 'ole 2.8-3.1-3.4?  Meaning it would hook up reasonably easily?
I have just read three websites thru pretty well regarding the 3.4 tdc and there seems to be a fair bit of concensus that they are a maintenance headache. OK if you enjoy tinkering everysaturday morning, but I ultimately want total dependability so that if I go for a long tour I don' t have to worry about the car breaking down in Armpit, Ontario or somewhere with comparable mechanical expertise available.
ANY and all info or directions appreciated.
Thx
GP

[FieroBUZZ]

It wasn't the tinkering that scared me away from the DOHC.  It was more of a feeling that I'd get it together and there it would have a major stroke.

As far as  I know the Camaro 3800 is the same basic motor as the FWD version.  There may be some differences in the externals due to the RWD format.  It is not an enlarged 3.4. I would think that you would be better off with a front driver.  They are available pretty much everywhere.

If you are planning a manual tranny you may want to look for a 96 Camaro (3800) flywheel to have modified.
THEY are NOT around everywhere.  I got mine from Orillia (thanks again Eric).

[fiero308]

thx Gary
I DO plan on rowing the gearshift; what trans are you going to run?
I am looking now for a 284 (I know, I know) altho there are reports that they are difficult to get repaired; I might be better off with a 282 (pretty common and inexpensive) and just be prepared to repair it.
There IS a place I found in TO that supposedly 'builds' the 282 to beef it up; again; somehting I will have to check out for myself.
gp

[FieroBUZZ]

I am using the 4 speed Muncie (3:65 ratio) and Eric, I assume, is using the 5 speed Isuzu that he just put in (I think it is the Isuzu).

I won't be torturing mine too much and I think the clutch will be the weak link rather than the tranny. Besides they are as common as dirt.

I bet the 284 will run you about 1200.00 and still need to be converted to work in a Fiero.   I'd try the stock 282 and see what happens.  I bet that's what most are running.

The flywheel needs to be machined from 1.1 inches thick to .84 in thick.  Then it has to be balanced to match the flexplate being removed.  This imbalance varies by year of motor.  Eric had his done at Ottawa Clutch and I will try them as well. I'll let you know how it goes.

[Fieroflyer]

I believe the major difference between FWD and RWD engines is the side the starter mounts on. Now the block can be redrilled if the casting allows for this some engines couldn't be done. In the case of the 3800 the oil filter is up front so that won't be a problem where on some engines adapters are required. Myself still like the 3100SFI engines if you are looking for nice power but large reliability as well as fuel mileage and for emissions you can't beat the SFI engines. Best thing to ever happen to fuel injection. Only reason I am now doing the 3800SC is because I'm going to run an auto tranny this time, if not I would stick with the 3100SFI for good. The stock 88 up 2.8 and 3.1 flywheels bolt right up. Mine was getting around 35MPG last year and pulling high 14's. Now thats not fast compared to some but for a daily street driven car thats not bad either. but most important light to light eats most modded imports and can be done for around $1,500 total.

[fiero308]

new forum looks NICE!!!!!!
Gary - you are pretty sure that the camaro 3800 (not the buick s/c etc) 3800 is not simply an enlarged 2.8 type successor?  Or is it the same thing as the non-sc 3800??
I am wondering if the 3.4 ohv engine (with my turbo fixation attached to it!) would produce the 350hp I would want to have on tap (when I want).
I am starting to think it might.  Szabo (sp?) in toronto suggested I could get almost 300 hp with the 2.8 if it was done right.  That would have been with his supercharger set up.  I prefer the turbo and there are pros and cons of course.
And Rodney Dickman sent me a note that (sort of) hinted that the 284 wasn't all it was cracked up to be (pardon the pun) if I were to read the notes on Pennocks.....  interesting........
If I can convince myself that a very well done 3.4 will produce that kind of power then that will be my way to go.  Will still require special pistons for lower 'static' compression ratio but I am willing to shell out for them and the gapless rings.  So NOW the question becomes - is there ANY source of speed/performance parts for the 3.4 ohv engine?
Or some models/years to watch out for (avoid) and others to prefer?  Did it come in a SFI version?  (i am guessing it did) Is that an easy swap into the fiero?
back to the experts - your turn.
and thanks
GP

[FieroBUZZ]

Okay, I am no pro so this is pretty much what I feel and have read.  I am assuming that the 3.4 you speak of is the iron head one.

The 3800 is as far as I know the same as a n/a GP 3800 except that the starter may be on the other side and the induction system may point off in some other direction. The 3800 is 90 degrees and the others are 60.  Also as the Camaro 3800 flywheel is properly drilled to fit the 3800 crank I would suspect it is the same.

The n/a and s/c engines are radically different and you cannot just slap the s/c on a regular 3800.  It can be done but the list of things to change (from the Bonneville forum) would seem to suggest starting with the s/c motor is cheaper.  There are a lot of mods coming on line and I think with some internal massaging and pulley changes you could get to the 350 hp mark reasonably easily (and without killing the motor) Try to find Fierox's stuff. It may be www.fierox.com . he is well into the 11's although reliabilty may be an issue.

The iron head 3.4 is normally at about 165 hp. Also it is an old design, meaning you may keep the block but probably swap out everything else.  I have never read of one hitting 350 hp or even 300 hp and I doubt that the weekend that it holds together would be worth it.

If you are serious about wanting that kind of power then an sbc would be much cheaper and more reliable in the long run.  Maybe Nick will sell you his car to convert??  He would be better to reply here as he already has done the sbc swap.

If you would like to stay v-6, I think for the power you want you'd be better with the 3800.  Ask Nick about the v-8's range with an 11 gallon tank.  

[fiero308]

hi Gary
I guess my question really was whether or not GM (in their infinite wisdom) was making TWO n/a 3800's - but wanted to confirm it. I know the SC and non-SC are very different and my previous plan (wellllll ...
ONE of them) was to take the SC version and add my turbo system to it, since it is already built for 'some' boost.  I think I will likely go that way; there seems to be as many parts available for that engine as any, and it is in pretty good shape to start with. I have a name of a guy 'down south' who is doing exactly what I want to do and I will be following that.
I have built lots of SBC's and know their fondness for gas very well. That is a reason for going turbo.  And I don't want the weight.  Control the boost; use it when you want, and don't when you DON'T want and it gets conventional gas mileage.
The old 3.8's from 86 and 87 have dynoed (no, they weren't exactly STOCK) at up to 2200 hp in professional drag racing form (ansd stayed together for a season) so they are quite capable of making 350 hp on a lesser basis.  I tend to suspect that szolt in toronto would be cautious about making claims but he is also selling stuff I guess.
Last thought: the 3.4 (ordinary ohv) is not a lot smaller and is an easy swap in.  I have a LOT of experience doing head porting etc etc; it is amazing how much you can pick up with proper work and the benefits cover every aspect of the engine and car driveability.  I honestly don't think it is a huge stretch to think that if a 2.4 liter 4 cyl can make 450+ hp on HIGH boost (20psi+) that a 3.4 engine with a top porting job and medium boost (14-15psi) can't make 350hp.  But that is a guess right now.  I would expect more than that from a 3800, but I would run more boost thru it too.
just once in a while, you understand.............
thx for the input and thoughts; keep it coming  
gp