Ottawa Fiero Club Forum

Okay!!!

Here are a few notes for anyone thinking of doing the late model Northstar conversion (using the 282 transmission of course).  Not everything is listed, but if you are seriously considering the conversion after reading this, then you can probably handle the other stuff.  Also notable is that this is an expensive conversion (budget lots of extras), the last thing you want is to start a world class conversion just to skimp later on something important because you ran out of money, so don’t run out of money.

The Getrag 282 transmission does not bolt right up.  Northstar uses 4 bolts on the top and 2 bolts on the bottom.  Getrag uses 6 bolts on the top, and just for fun the top rear bolt does not line up!  However special brackets can be made for the bottom two bolts, and the miss-aligned bolt can be fixed.

A flywheel is hard to get, and I recommend making or buying a new one instead of plugging and re-drilling an old one.  My concerns here are with stress concentration.

Expect problems from the electrical system.  Don’t attempt this conversion if you don’t have some background in electronics.

The engine cradle will have to have it’s front cross member cut out and moved forward at least 125 mm.  Then you get to figure something out for the front transmission bracket (fun).

The engine starter isn’t where you’d expect it to be.  Expect instead, to have to modify your transmission casing (that means cutting it because it's much easier than moving or changing the starter).

You must (okay not must but should) cut out the bottom of your trunk (to rout the exhaust).  You will lose approximately 1/3 of your useable trunk space.

When looking for your engine, you may want to see if you can get the Cadillac gauge panel as well (if you're planning on using the Caddilac computer, unless you have some serious circuitry skills).  You don’t have to use it though (Don't need this if you are using CHRFab Computer).

You will have to modify you computer code!  (unless you are using the 5 speed and you don’t need all the functions to work properly, and again only if you are using tha Cadillac computer).

Once you have the car all finished and you feel like showing off for your friend, remember this.  If you rev up the engine to 4000 rpm and drop the clutch you will brake something!  You can accelerate as hard as you want as long as you don’t spin the tires.

That reminds me.  You will need an after market clutch.  One that comes with it’s own pressure plate for increased pressure.

So keep in mind that you will have to weld, cut, modify, innovate and re-do things.  This is one of the most involved conversions you can do.  Expect between 100 and 500 hours to get it right (depending on skill level).  Also expect no help from those that offer this kit professionally.  They want to sell you their whole kit or nothing at all (some may cooperate, like CHR-Fab, ie. get your computer there).

I should be done my kit sometime in Oct.  I’m willing to produce any info needed at that time.  Due to the lack of cooperation from the conversion industry (which has ticked me off) I may very well offer all the information for free online (posted and open to the public, including computer code and wiring diagrams) (still thinking about it though, it’s a lot of work to do just because no one else offers it).



Aaron

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Wow welcome to the forum/club, sounds like you've put a pile of work and planning in, nicely done.

Hmmm that'll make for

Dukes
2.8's
3.1
3.4
SC3.8('s)
and a Northstar we are a diverse bunch

Ummm what about us V8 guys  ;D

Sorry Nick, your always so quiet and nice I always forget your turn into the incredible bulk when you get a wrench in your hand, plus I've only seen the 1 car before so I always forget, sorry bud

hey! this kit has me hooked
www.v8archie.com
5.7 small block

Just thought I’d post a quick update.

The engine is in, but lots of component transfer still to do.  Still waiting on computer, flywheel and clutch.

Aaron

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(http://www.fierodrivers.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=765.0;attach=222)

a clap on the back to you Aaron! You are moving ahead and that has got to be gratifying!!
I am sure everyone will be pretty interested in seeing the final result and I am personally sure that it will be immaculate.
 ;D

If anyone is wondering about the cradle modifications this is it.  The front cross-member was in the way of the exhaust, oil filter and sensor.  I could have cut off a bit more of the old cross-member but hindsight is 20/20 isn’t it.

(http://www.fierodrivers.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=765.0;attach=233)

This is the old engine cradle (for reference), it was in bad shape so ditched it.

(http://www.fierodrivers.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=765.0;attach=234)

dude!!!

 ;D ;D
that knowledge is gold!

keep posting

Simplicity is best.

Someone had suggested to me that I reuse the original tensioner.  Here’s why I don’t like that idea.  The original belt had the alternator, AC compressor and a power steering pump on it.  The belt was tensioned so that it would not slip under full load of all the components at the same time.  Without this load the tension can be much less, the result is a 4 fold reduction is the wear rate on the remaining bearings.  Thus increased life.

I used a 40" belt and one of the existing bolt holes.

Aaron

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(http://www.fierodrivers.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=765.0;attach=255)

There is a proper bracket that will soon be available. a Friend has been running it on his northstar car for 5 years and will be making copies



Flywheels are easy to get. KFG makes a nice aluminum one. I got mine about a week ago. Setup perfectly for the northstar, not some redrilled home brew crap


If you want a good setup , take the stock ECM  and harness and throw them as far away as you can. I bought CHRFAB's Holley commander system and their 288 cams , all pre programmed for the new 7800 rpm redline.  A little dyno time and it should be a solid 375 RWHP. I also had to swap larger injectors. I chose some nice off the shelf Z06 Vette units. Pricey...but worth it. Alan @ CHRFAB does a beautiful job with the harness , everything is labeled and easy to setup.  Worth the $2000



Again brackets are out their that work , you just have to know where to look , or the right people


5 min with an open shoe grinder, you cut out a minimal amount. Or you can go William Capmans route and fab up an engine adaptor.. it's probalby a better way of doing it , but your looking at $1000. It takes the stress of the tranny case



Chris Moore has built 6 Northstar cars using stock exhaust setups.
William Lucke used 2 Left side manifolds (like shorty headers) you get a full trunk everytime and a much better exhaust setup. William and I have a gentleman building us some nice stainless headers 4 into 2 . There designed with a  good strong streetable powerband in mind , not too peaky, shorty desing., there also designed with the 288 cams in mind. about $600US for the set of stainless units. 1 set is almost finished.


Howell will sell you the harness and modified 5spd computer for $800


the clutch will break before the tranny. Try and get a 9/11/16" clutch and pressure plate. I have gone with a spec stage 3 ceramic unit that has been lightened

Could be me , but I have found it pretty straight forward. Little things your missing, use 4cyl fuel lines , they come out on the left side of the car , instead of the 6cyl ones which come out on the right.

swap the rear spindles , and hubs to Pontiac 6000HD units 5x115. They are a lot stronger than the weiner 5x100 units. you will only get 3000 miles out of the stock bearings with a northstar behind them. This isn't fiction..it's a proven fact from about 7 guys who have been running N* 5spd and auto's since 1995


I would say 90% of the info is already out there. there is a northstar mailing list, there are dozens of pics on file. it's a pretty easy swap when all things are considered. Some go with the stock type setup. Some (like myself) go a little further.

I started with a 96 N* engine VIN 9 . bought some spare heads , 5 angle (yes 5 ) valve job and a nice street port. CHR cams , springs and retainers. Had the heads magnafluxed. Stock GM gaskets (there the best) new ARP bolts. That alone with the computer should make near the 400hp mark. I will be running a 100 shot this season on the car (dry , NOS brand kit) and I have a nice little Vortec S trim tucked away for next  winter. As I mentioned before I have z06 injectors , the spec clutch and KFG aluminum flywheel. The heads are kind of gravy , but there stainless and have been meticlously designed for the northstar , were not shooting in the dark. Ed @ ""HeadersbyED"" helped with the design. Alan @ CHRfab has been great in the entire process as well. Chris moore and Will Lucke are the real gods of this conversion.  Both will and chris drive there cars everyday, Chris has had his running for 7 years without a problem.

The tranny is an issue for some. But you won't break it with clutch dumps and spinning the tires. The breakage will occur between gears  during hard shifts. The getrags gearing isn't the greatest for a v8 , but it's a manual tranny. Right now I am looking at Saab 93 vector and ARC trannies as a good alternativer. Gives you a nice spacing (close ratio) as well it is a 6spd.

for belt setup...gut the power steering pump , or relocate the one idler pulley. keep life easy..don't get into odd sized belts.

My car should be going by January.


Jonathan McCreery
86 GT , 5spd , northstar , 288 cams , nitrous , big brakes , koni's , you name it ...it's in there.

Jonathan

Thanks for the info.  Most of it can be used.

The flywheel and computer (harness included) I bought from Alan (CHRFab)!  I have actually been talking to manufacturers of northstar flywheels for four months now saying that I want one and send it to me.  But for some reason I haven’t been able to get any of them to actually send it until now (CHRFab has shipped the items, but they aren’t here yet).

About the aluminum flywheel: I have studied the properties of aluminum for this application and I’m not satisfied with the results from the cyclic loading on aluminum.  I don’t trust that the flywheel will have the durability that I want from it.  Besides, it’s really hard to beat the flexing properties of steel.  I’ll take the weight gain in turn for those properties any day over aluminum (for this application only).  Actually I prefer the properties of titanium for this application but I’m not about to pay for that.  I know that some people have been using the aluminum flywheel for some time now under adverse conditions without a problem but, I will stand by my research and say that if this in done then it should be replaced at regular interval with a fresh one.  What that interval is I honestly haven’t calculated.

I like my belt set up.  It’s easy and super simple.

I’ve been considering those 288 cams now for some time, but I’m still undecided.  I figure that I’ll wait until I have the stock engine running for a while before I make that decision.  I want to have a good feel for exactly where I want to go with this conversion before I do it, I don't want to find out that it wasn’t enough (or was too much).

I did go with grinder to the transmission rout.

I’ve been considering a 6 speed HD transmission (sill in the works and posted on PFF), but let me know how it goes with your Saab transmission install and use.  I may go that route if it works out well for you and since it’s a transmission that has been out for a while.

Thanks again for the info.  I did find some threads on PFF about this conversion posted by Will (maybe the same one).  I didn’t find it until I had most of the work already done, but found that I had almost the same solutions for most of the same problems.  Funny how that works, I guess it just makes sense.

I’ll be posting a bunch of picks when I get a little more time on my hands.

Aaron

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32V NorthStar Engine in a Fiero...

thats like a Solid Rocket Booster off the shuttle duct taped to the roof of my car!

You are going to rev that thing and one of two things is going to happen.

You are going to pull the fattest burn out with the engine idling....or...the fiero is going to instantly flip on its roof from engine torque twist!

Your 1/4 mile times will have nothing to do with HP....everything to do with what kind of rear tires you are running...

INSANE conversion!

do it up man!

Time for me to post some more pic’s

The engine placement was a little more tricky for my car because apparently on the 88 models there is less room between the strut towers.  In my case I moved the engine and transmission to the left about 3/4 of an inch.  This left roughly 1/4 inch clearance between the engine and right strut tower, and 1/4 inch clearance between the transmission and the body (too many and’s).

I’m told that for pre 88 year models the engine can be located by the original transmission mounts (manual transmission), without a problem.  However, if you’re to ask me, the suspension and brake upgrades on the 88 far outweigh any extra hassle.

Aaron

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(http://www.fierodrivers.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=765.0;attach=265)
P.S. go to next page (bottom left)

The engine mounts were made out of ¼ inch steel plate bent on a brake press.  Here are some picks of the locations I chose for mounting.  The pics aren’t the best, I’ll try to get better ones later.  The bottom part of these mounts can be seen on the cradle in a previous photograph.

Aaron

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(http://www.fierodrivers.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=765.0;attach=266)

Rear transmission bracket, also bent on a brake press.

(http://www.fierodrivers.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=765.0;attach=267)

The northstar motor has mounting locations for two dogbones.  These had to be custom made.  They attach to the engine with rubber mounts and are bolted solid to the firewall mounting plates.  The mounting plates were bolted in because I don’t trust welds to such a light gauge material.  The engine bay plate is reinforced 5052 (high salt water resistance) aluminum.  The interior plate is slightly larger and split due to the geometry of the fire wall.  Both plates and dogbones are similar but different.

Aaron

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(http://www.fierodrivers.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=765.0;attach=268)

This is the bolt hole on the transmission that didn’t line up with the block.  To get this to work I notched the block a little and put in a little add-on piece.  It will at some point be Tig welded.

As I said before the Northstar uses 4 bolts on top and two on the bottom (Getrag uses 6 bolts on top), so it’s actually quite important to make use of this bolt hole so that there is no area that goes over 180° without positive pressure on it.

Aaron

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(http://www.fierodrivers.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=765.0;attach=278)

To make use of the bottom two bolts, I made a bracket that would bolt to the two holes on the block used for the old bracket and two unused bolt holes on the transmission.  Here I’m showing the old (auto) bracket and the new one.

Aaron

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(http://www.fierodrivers.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=765.0;attach=279)

The flywheel (when it finally came in) wasn’t quite the right fit.  I had to take 4 mm off the face because it was too thick, the clutch would have made contact with the inside of the transmission housing. I think this is a very important thing to check, all too often this sort of thing goes overlooked. Aftermarket parts are put into a vehicle without checking clearance of the parts both new and worn.  In this case I also had to shave a little off the flywheel bolts too.  Although there was no contact it was surmised that a completely worn clutch plate would have caused the springs to make contact with the bolt heads.

Check out the shine on that face.  This also gave me the opportunity to put a much better finish on the face of the flywheel than originally offered.

Aaron

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(http://www.fierodrivers.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=765.0;attach=280)

As you can see here the starter is in an interesting place.  The best solution in this case is to notch the transmission casing.  It’s also very important when you are doing this that you get the edges of your cut-out to be as smooth as possible.  This will insure that you don’t get stress cracking due to stress concentration at the uneven surface (long story) prematurely (hopefully not at all).  I didn’t do a perfect job but it will do for this application.

Aaron

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(http://www.fierodrivers.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=765.0;attach=281)

It should be noted that in some cases it might me necessary to notch the rear trunk for better clearance of the rear O2 sensor (if using original computer and Manual trans).  In my case I had notched the trunk before I knew that this O2 sensor wasn’t needed (Due to the use of the Holley Commander 950 computer.  Note: the computer required depends on year of Motor).  Only one O2 sensor is needed.  Which one is up to you.  Also notable is that in my case the O2 sensor needed isn’t the same as the factory one.

Welding thin gauge metal isn’t fun and also not recommended for those with little experience.

Aaron

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(http://www.fierodrivers.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=765.0;attach=282)

A plate needs to be made that will fit closely to the transmission and clear the engine block, preventing street grime from getting into your clutch.  I honestly don’t know what you call this protective cover, so please mind my ignorance.

Aaron

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(http://www.fierodrivers.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=765.0;attach=283)

Interesting indeed!  I can't tell from the photo--is there much which has to be removed from the top of the motor should it become necessary to repair/replace the starter?

I’m not sure exactly what’s involved because I havn’t tried, but it would be something like this.
Remove:
     upper vacuum hoses
     the fuel rail hoses
     the throttle body hoses
     intake manifold (fuel rail and throttle body still attached)
     knock sensor
Then you have access to remove the starter.  It’s a bit more work but it can all be done from the top.

Aaron

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Sorry for the inconvenience but my body tells me that I have to take a brake (been working 90 hours / week lately).  I'll be back at my car the first weekend of November.

Aaron

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The cast iron clutch fork lever arm may need to be shaved a bit to get it to clear the Northstar thermostat housing crossover.

Aaron

(http://www.fierodrivers.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=765.0;attach=299)

Fuel line routing:

This is the configuration I chose.  I’m using 1/4” line with 11/32” hose.

I moved the fuel filter from the right side to the left side.  All the brackets are mounted using nutserts.  The fuel lines are mounted to the body using plastic lined clamps and nutserts (similar to the clamps I used for the radiator hose line except smaller, I mention this because they are easier to see in that photo).  You can see from the photo that there is another line there going under the fuel filter and mounted in front of it.  This is the routing I chose for the clutch hydraulic line, I’m not sure where it goes on a stock setup because I have converted my car also from automatic to manual (because this is not pertinent to this conversion I’m not going to mention it further).  


Aaron

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(http://www.fierodrivers.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=765.0;attach=300)

Coolant lines:

For this application I went to the junk yard and picked up various lengths of heater hose with different bends and bend lengths.  You’ll need an ‘S’ shaped tube about 2 feet long and a couple 90° plus lengths at 1.25” to 1.5” ID.  What I couldn’t pick up there I made using 1.25” aluminum tubing.  I put a bend in it as can be seen, it’s just under 90°, the trick is to heat it up until its almost at melting temp before you put it into your tube bender.

Aaron

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PLEASE NOTE: The radiator lines in the photo below are hooked up backward.  This was a mistake, I thought that the thermostat was on the pump outlet side as it usually is, but on the Northstar the thermostat is on the inlet side of the pump.  I should have noticed this just by looking at the water pump but somehow at the time it eluded me.  This doesn’t make a big difference except when trying to fill the system or if you get a coolant leak, because during normal operation there shouldn’t be any air in the system.   But all the same I’m going to change these two lines around sometime before the summer.  Passenger side coolant tube should rout to the water pump.

(http://www.fierodrivers.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=765.0;attach=301)

Heater Core Lines:

On the body side I used ¾” hose, and on the engine side I used a combination of ¾” hose and the old metal lines that were used on the Northstar.

On the body side it’s as simple as can be seen.  I used a length of aluminum to guide the hose.  The aluminum is fastened at both end to original brackets that existed on the fire wall.  Be careful here with the height of this supporting member because at first I made mine too high (the rubber hose came too close to the tensor pulley for the water pump).  I then lowered the aluminum bracket 4”.

On the engine side, I cut up and re-bent the steel lines that came with the motor.  In some arias I used only the elbows (joined with the ¾” hose).  The heater core inlet (manifold outlet) line was protected from direct contact with other components with the use of weather-stripping (and then fastened with zip ties to other brackets).  The heater core outlet (manifold inlet) line has a ‘T’ on it with a section that is caped off at the top.  This is so that the system can be properly filled with coolant (a dry pump won’t pump fluid).

Aaron

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(http://www.fierodrivers.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=765.0;attach=302)

Brake booster hose:

The brake booster hose has a 90° elbow on the engine end and fire wall end.  The rest was routed using ½” hose.  The hose follows the heater core return line (kind of).

Note: the EGR system was later removed.

Aaron

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(http://www.fierodrivers.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=765.0;attach=303)

What about the amt of stress the new flywheel can take?

I would not have shaved my flywheel without a test flywheel to just how much it can take without snapping.

That northstar engine has quite a bit of torque and if you spend a lot of money on a REALLY nice clutch the flywheel could be the weakest link in the chain.

4mm is a lot of meat.

What do you think?!?!

what is your flywheel made of?

Boot

The flywheel is steel.  I'm not sure what alloy, the manufacturer didn't specify

There is still a lot of meet left on this flywheel, almost double the stock 2.8 thickness.

(EDIT : after further consideration, I realized that the Northstar flywheel is only marginally thicker than the stock 2.8 one.)

Aaron

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hey i'm new to this forum, and i am starting a N* swap as we speak, i just have a couple questions.
will the engine mount you used work with the 87 cradle, and if so, what would you charge to make one. yours is simple and works, so i'd be very interested in it.
i think that about covers it right now.
thanks
ian

Hellfish

Welcome to the club!

It looks like you have one of the new northstars?  What are you planning to do for your computer?

Due to the nature of the motor mounts I used they are very versatile, however you will still need to cut out your old motor mount and weld in supports for the rubber spacers onto your cradle.  Depending on the transmission you are deciding to use you may want to go to solid mounts.  The 88 cradle is solid mounted which is why I had to use rubber mounting to the cradle but you may find it easier (depending on transmission) to mount solid to your cradle since it’s rubber mounted to your frame.  Unless you are planning to use poly cradle mount.  These will not dampen enough of the vibration.  Also you (87) can mount the engine 3/4 of an inch farther to the right side than I did (88), which may help with the placement of the mounts.

So here’s the skinny of it.  If I make you a set of mounts you will still have to weld the bottom ones to your cradle (and possibly have to grind them into shape better to fit your cradle verses mine), and drill the holes for the mounting bolt (due to the alignment you chose).  Plus I will need to know what your mounting height is (depending on transmission).

Aaron

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oh its an aftermarket one!

OK...I thought you took the stock one and shaved it down so it would fit!

hey thanks for the welcome,
it's acually a 94 sts N*, for the computer i'll be useing the holley 950, its not worth trouble shooting a computer that does not tell you what is wrong, in my opinion anyway.
i will be useing the getrag 5 speed, and i would prefer a solid mount set up. i have a bad history with rubber mounts, so if i have ot make aluminum spacers so be it. the welding is not really a problem.
i really just need one mount, be cause the one side N* mount seems to line up pretty well, the one that bolts to the head. i just need a second one that you have fabbed up. as long as you throw in the holes so it mounts to the block, i should be set for install the rest is just like lego, :P

My bad (about the motor year).  I should have noticed that.

check out how Archie mounts this ZZ4:
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/037222-2.html
It’s the way to go if you are solid mounting.  Also if you are going to use a solid mount for the motor, you really should use a solid mount for the transmission as well.  That way not too much stress gets transferred to the engine mount.  However if you have and plan on using the rubber motor mount that came with the Northstar and the rubber transmission mounts, it's just as easy to use my mount with rubber.  Once you have the bracket It's just a matter of welding it in place (tack to check the placement, then weld full).

Aaron

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i was only thinking solid mount purely for ease, but in the end it's acually more work. i would like to use the n* mount, and just use the other mount you did. as it seems to wrok out alot better.
oh and do you have any pics of the position of the stock N* mount? the mount you made is pretty clear i just need a pic of the N* mount

I didn't get either of the northstar mounts with my engine.  I only know what they look like from my manual.  I can post a pic with this reply later.  The front mount also bolts to the stock auto transmission (which isn't there).

Which mount of mine do you need?

Aaron

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(http://www.fierodrivers.com/forum/attachments/Engine_Mount_S.JPG)
i REALLY like the look of this mount, so i'd be interested in that one case it looks like it is the easyiest mount to do.

Aaron, that's awesome.   I'm putting a 2001 DTS engine in an '88.  I'm not as far along as you are, so your pictures answered a few questions for me.  As far as the placement issue on the passenger side, I'm cutting part of the strut tower and inverting it.  I'll have to use coilovers, but I had planned on that anyway.  I don't live in Canada, but I had to sign up to let you know what an exceptional job you're doing on your swap.

 ;D Fantastic write up. Best one I have seen yet. I would of liked to do a N* conversion, but published problems with the Computer changede my mind.

hey Bushroot;
if you have any links or ideas on that I'd be interested.  LMK;
appreciate any and all info.
thx!!

 ;D

http://sandstallion.com/link_wiem.html
http://sandstallion.com/engines.html
http://www.bbandtracing.com/EAGLE.html
http://www.rosspistons.com/custom/eightcylinder.php3
http://www.avengercylinderheads.com/
http://www.speclutches.com/specMain.html
http://www.fluidyne.com/pl_thhe.html
http://www.absoluteradiator.com/Intercoolers.asp?idDept=8
http://www.absoluteradiator.com/images/PWRBarrelIntercoolers.jpg
http://www.precisionte.com/products/products.php?view=robot&qcategory=Fuel+Components&qtype=Fuel+Pumps
http://www.slowboyracing.com/Mitsubishi%20Turbos/EVO%2016g/EVO16g.html

That should be enough to chew on for a couple minutes anyway.

actually what I was referring to (you have to be a mind reader ::) )
was info on the coil over suspension; especially if it is fiero setups but interested in looking at anything.
thanks!!
 ;D

Aaaaah!....in that case....


http://www.colemanracing.com/section/index.htp?id=343
http://dwayne9.addr.com/fiero.html
http://www.shox.com/
http://www.westcoastfiero.com/suspension/suspension.html
http://www.heldmotorsports.com/suspen.htm
http://www.8shark.com/

How about some brakes too?

http://www.magnumforce.com/store4/wilwood_disc_brakes.htm
http://www.inlinetube.com/

Use of a grinder on the body:

I’m not going to post any pictures for this because all the arias I’m talking about can be seen from previous pictures.

The dogebone bracket for the original (2.8) engine was cut out.  To do this and make as few holes as possible I used a grinder to grind off the spot welds from the top.  First I found all the weld spots and marked them, then grinded about 95% of the way though the top sheet metal.  Do one spot at a time then pry up the metal, that way you can be sure which spots need more grinding.  If there is life still in the spot weld don’t pull harder it should just come off nicely (with very little force).  After you have the piece out then grind down all the spots so when painted you can’t see a disaster. (see the engine clearance pictures)  I did the same thing with the battery tray because I’m relocating it to the front of the car, for better weight distribution.  However; if desired the battery tray can be saved but will have to be modified if so.  I didn’t go this rout so I don’t have any instructions for this.  Perhaps in the future someone will post a solution.

Some of those little brackets for mounting screws that are on your fire wall (except for the bottom two, which are quite useful), that stick out more than an inch should be removed.  It makes it much easier to rout things later.  However every application is going to be a little different, since every installer is going to rout things a little differently.  After you have done a dry fit to see what has to go and have figured out where you are going to rout thing, then you can remove the redundant points of irritation. (see the fuel and heater hose pictures)

The right side trunk lid hinge; this hinge will have to be trimmed if using the manual transmission, how much will depend on your placement.  I had to remove the pre-tensioned rods as well.  I measured the placement with the automatic transmission and found that with the right placement (mounting to the left) everything should fit fine between the hinges, and the stock setup can stay.  (see the dogebone picture)

There will also be a lot of grinding your cradle as well but that goes without saying.

As a note, I think this should be considered because I almost had a little problem with this.  When grinding in the general vicinity of your windows, do yourself a favour and cover them up with a good fire resistant blanket.  Otherwise you may end up with a mess to clean off your window.

Aaron

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Electrical is almost complete.  I will be posting the results sometime in the next few weeks.  Sorry but I’ve been busy, plus winter is comming so there is no rush anymore.

Aaron

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Aaron,

you have the SICKEST shop!!!!!

I WISH I had that shop to work in!

Props guy!

dude....now i know why you don't mind doing the swap!

mmm, what tool do I need ???

AH there it is, right next to the lathe and spray booth!

bahahahaha

Well; we do build fire trucks.  We have all the tools that use to make me drool.  Now they just make me take on overly ambitious projects that take insane amounts of my free time.

If anyone wants a progress report?  The car is all wired up, but I ran into a little problem with the poor little Fiero battery and battery cables.

Apparently the negative battery cable (from the Fiero) isn’t big enough to supply the juice required to turn over that 4.6 beast.  I tried and tried but all I did was heat up that poor little cable until it was hot enough to almost burn me (that’s when I figured out why it wasn’t turning over).  So I haven’t been able to start the motor even though I have all the wiring done.  I ran out of time so it’s going to have to wait.

Next on the list is to relocate the battery up front and include monster cables with it.  No time to do this until next Tuesday (Dec, 9th).  Wait for my report then.

Before I do that though, I should have some time to go over a few things about doing the wiring.  Stay tuned, or get tuned a few days from now.

Aaron

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You gotta get that thing running and invite us out for the test drive!

WOO HOO BABY
This Fiero is gonna kick some serious ass! Its gonna tear every Honda in Ottawa a few new assholes!

I heard my Prelude scream when I saw the engine hanging from the celing.

Very impressive work.   Looking well done!  

I am interested in how the firewall dog bones will hold up, have you heard/seen of any other fiero's with such a dog bone set up?

Pete

I have never seen a Northstar installation firsthand before.  I’ve seen some picks here and there but what you see here is my first hand problem solving.  Some things may have been done better by someone else but until that is shown I’ll stand by my methods, they made a lot of sense to me when I did them.

The dog bone is quite secure.  The engine bay plate is a three layer plate that builds up thicker and thicker as you get to the point of application, more than strong enough.  The inner plate is 3/16” 5052-H32 aluminum, if this plate shows any sign of disfigurement then I’ll post that news and list the correct size and thickness to use on the inside.  However I am expecting a cirtain amount of flex in the fire wall.  Again, if it’s too much then I’ll post my solution (I do have one but at this time it involves more work but can be done with the motor in anyway).

First gear will through about 1300 lb (rough calculation) per dogbone.  It should hold no problem, but it will flex.

Aaron

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If you are flexing the metal over and over again...will it not eventually become stressed and fracture?

Whether the metal brakes or not depends entirely on the amount of flex and the time in-between left for recovery (in my case I have all winter every winter for the metal to stress relieve itself, which shouldn’t be necessary).

This is why I need to observe the amount of flexing in order to determine if it’s safe or not.  I do believe that the flex will not be substantial enough to warrant any worry, but in the case that it is, I will post a solution.

Steel has great flexing properties, this is why steel is used for springs so much.  They really last a long time under these conditions as long as you are not approaching the yield stress.  The yield stress can be approached easily by applying a small stress really fast or by vibrating it at it’s natural frequency, but those are conditions that I don’t have to worry about.  

Aaron

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Cool stuff!

I just learned something!

...ok, I have a question...

I noticed while I was there your suspension components...

Are they matched to an 88 Fiero GT or a V8 conversion?
Secondly...Are the fronts going to remain stock or do you need something stiffer to compensate for the mother of an engine you got back there ???

the suspension will no doubt be just the gt stuff, the final weight of the N* is only about 45 lbs heavier, than the 2.8 so you really dont need to upgrade but it is a good idea, to maybe jump to coil overs with a 350 or maybe 375 lb spring.

A friend of mine sent a copy of the site to me, after reading this thread I had to sign on and say GOOD JOB! I am also doing the swap this winter, infact I am going to go get the motor this weekend. Please keep it up, it looks like your helping more than just me!!!!

ahh, ok...but is there some heavier springs as an option? like when you do an s-10 conversion, you have to change the springs/dampers because of the extra weight moving around....

The big news that a lot of people (mostly wanting rides) have been waiting for.  At 01:45 this morning the motor came to life.  Thanks a million to Don and Sacha, who had the insight to bring champagne for the occasion (too bad you couldn’t have stayed for the pop, pop vroooooom...sweeeeeeeet!!!).

I’m sorry I haven’t had time to update the electrical but I have been more busy than expected.  I will get to it shortly, but here is a summery.  All of the components requiring wiring can be run through the two quick disconnect connectors (the one just inside the fire wall C203 and the one in the battery location aria C500).
rpm gauge works but will have to be recalibrated
Oil pressure gauge works but will have to be recalibrated
Coolant temp sensor will have to be added to the manifold somewhere if I want the gauge to work
ECU software (for Holley 950) would only install on win 95 thru 98 SE + NT

I will get back to proper posting soon.



aka;

I have Koni and springs all the way around and poly for the front end (I kept the rubber in the rear because I want it to be a little softer than the front).  I haven’t put in the front end suspension components only because I haven’t gotten to it yet.

Aaron

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thanx aaron!

good to hear man! A north* running with no headers....mmmmm....

when can the rest of us posers see her?  ;)

so guys like myself running win xp cant do a heck of alot for the programing can we. damn

good to hear it's running, as far as recalibration, i think the tach only needs a v-8 tach filter.  at least for me the oil preasure and temp sensors i want to use the v6 ones, saves calibration, i'll just put a T connection on the oil preasure line, the temp may not work so easy.
again congrats on that,

ok can you do me a favour please.....there is this guy on the Ottawa Prelude site who thinks his Honda is a friggn Lamborgini....he was dissing Fieros and saying how his car can kill them hands down.....Can you please take his ass to the track when your new engine is tuned and open his eyes a little!

I'd like him to see that yes ...Honda makes a good car...YES....some of them are fast..and NO..yours is not one of them!

Hes got V-tec too which will make it even better when you V8 past his ass!

mou-ha ha ha h ah

The wires to follow:

I highly recommend getting the GM books for the Fiero of your model year.  These books have the best diagrams for the wiring.  It’s much easier to trace out your circuits that way.  I also highly recommend finding out what each wire is for before you cut it.

Keep in mind that my car is an 88 GT, fully loaded (no AC), the wiring on your Fiero my vary, especially if you have an 84 model.  I’m using a 98 Northstar (meaning OBD II) and hooking up the “Holley commander 950” as purchased from CHRFab.  This information isn’t the gospel, it’s just to give you an idea of what needs to be done and what doesn’t.

The computer that I received, came with a wiring harness that was well labelled.  There were no routing directions but basically, I started at the crank position sensors (near the oil filter) and worked my way around the motor.  I did have to look up a few acronyms so that I could locate the proper sensor, but it’s basically a no brainer.

The motor I bought didn’t come with the MAT Sensor (manifold air temperature) because the wrecker didn’t think I needed it.  I was able to get one from GM for $20 (UAP / NAPA did not have the part).  The GM dealer called it the “intake air temperature sensor” (IAT Sensor).  I’ll just insert this into the air intake line somewhere, not too close to the motor so that it doesn’t heat up from the outside and give a false reading.

Basically the wires you need to find and follow though are the following;
C 500 (wires that went though the connector at the battery location)
starter
alternator (3 wires)
reverse light switch (2 wires)
water temp (2 wires)
fan switch
tach

C 203 (wires that went though the fire wall connector)
Speed sensor (2 wires)
ECU ignition power
ECU constant power (went to the fuel pump relay first on my 88)
Fuel pump (many wires)
Oil pressure (many wires)

Other wires;
Trunk release


Find the components that you need (options vary), and follow the wires back to the respective connectors to the body wiring harness.  Label these wires once you find them (label clearly and don’t use abbreviations if you are not totally familiar with them).  After you know what all the wires are for (and labelled), cut the connectors free from the Fiero engine wiring harness.  (tip: to save some confusion latter it might help to label the wires on both sides of the place you cut them.  This way if you have to go back and rethink some logic, you will have saved yourself a lot of time)


Edited because of insomnia

(http://www.fierodrivers.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=765.0;attach=336)

CONNECTOR C500
(wires that went though the connector at the battery location)

starter
alternator (3 wires)
reverse light switch (2 wires)
water temp (2 wires)
fan switch
tach
trunk release

The starter; this is the wire that goes from your ignition to the starter.  I had an auto so this involved ignoring the switching that used to go through the transmission (so that your starter would only engage in park or neutral), just connect the wire at C 500 to the one on the Northtar (not the one that goes to the battery, that one attach to the positive battery terminal).

Trunk release; I also had this tiny little wire that followed the starter wire and was connected to the starter (for auto’s).  This is for your trunk release (so that you can only pop it in park or neutral), I just cut this out.  If you want a formal setup for the trunk release, for manual transmissions you could find the trunk release relay under your steering column and wire it though the switch on your emergency brake (so that you can only pop it when the parking brake is on), but I just bypassed all that crap and hooked it up straight to ground (bypassing the relay altogether).  I feel a need sometimes to pop the trunk when the parking brake isn’t on.  Respectively, if you have an automatic and you are planning to keep the Northstar auto, then it’s probably easiest to just hook these wires up, in the original configuration (small wire to small wire, and large wire to large wire).  However if you are using the Northstar auto this write-up is of little use to you since you will need to re-use the Northstar computer and components.

The alternator; (or generator); the Northstar only uses 3 wires for the generator, one of them just gets attached to the battery (that’s the big red one).  For the other two, find the orientation of the connector on you Fiero generator and match that configuration the Northstar generator (if you are using it), ignore the extra wires on the Fiero generator connector unless you are reusing that generator.

Reverse light switch; this is simple.  Attach the reverse light switch wires to the reverse light switch wires.

Water temp; this is many wires on the Fiero and just two on the Northstar (one of them is just a ground).  The Fiero has many coolant sensors, one for the water temp for the ECU, one for the water temp and idiot light in your gauge cluster, one for the fan switch relay and one for the cold start switch.  Did I miss any?  For my 2.8 the wires I needed to follow were the ones from the sensor nearest to the coil.  This is the one for the Fiero gauges.  Things here are a little tricky.  Because I used the Holley computer, it uses the temperature gauge on the Northstar block (don’t splice into that, you will change the readings).  If I want my Fiero gauges to work right, I have to add the same type sensor as the Fiero one (and get yourself an new one, don’t try to reuse the old one on the Fiero block).  There is a plug (with a pipe thread) in the manifold right near the block heater hose line.  I haven’t done this yet but I’m going to make a new plug with the appropriate pipe thread and drill and tap into it the right size pipe thread for the Fiero coolant sensor.  Then I’m going to wire this up accordingly to the Fiero gauge.  For reference, take a meter to the two wires on the Fiero gauge, one of them will have infinite resistance to the gage casing and the other will have a resistance reading.  The wire with the resistance reading is for the temperature gauge and the other is for the idiot light.  Again if you just match up these wires you’ll be fine.  However the replacement sensor you buy may have two wires that are for use with just the gauge, this is because most new sensors use a ground wire instead of grounding through the block.  If you get one of these sensors (you’ll be able to tell when you check it with a meter), hook up the gauge wire to one side and run the other wire on the sensor to ground.  This will mean that your idiot light will not work.

Fan switch; the fan switch in my case is controlled by the computer, so what I did once I found this wire on the harness, is follow it though until it came close to the location that I mounted the Holley computer, and spliced in a quick disconnect.  This way I can unplug this wire and remove the harness as one, if I need to drop the engine for any reason.  This wire (along with the tach wire) can be seen in the photo showing the Holley computer, if you look closely it’s on the right side of the harness that comes through the fire wall on the passenger side.

Tach; Once this wire was found it was traced back to the wiring harness that comes though the fire wall on the passenger side.  I used a quick disconnect connector so that the wire can be removed with the engine side of the harness.  I’ll explain this a bit better.  The tack wire comes from the Northstar engine and goes into the Holley computer, then out of the computer for your gauge, but is attached to the engine side of the wiring harness.  Therefore if you want to remove (or drop) the engine, the wire can simply be unplugged.  Be sure that the wire from the computer is connected properly with the wire that goes to the tack and not the end that goes to the connector C 500 (in the battery location).  I have a bit of a problem with gauge because it's set up to read the input of 6 cylinders and I want it to read for 8 cylinders.  At this time I’m not fixing this because I’m still trying to decide if I want to do a 4th gen Firebird dash conversion, in which case I would just use the tack there, already calibrated for a V8.  But for now the tach will just read 25% higher than actual, as long as I know this, it isn’t a big concern of mine right now.  The computer has a rev limiter anyway (and the computer knows the actual rpm which I can simply read on a computer screen).

Aaron

Edited for insomnia
(http://www.fierodrivers.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=765.0;attach=337)

CONNECTOR C203
(wires that went though the fire wall connector)

Speed sensor (2 wires)
ECU ignition power
ECU constant power (went to the fuel pump relay first on my 88)
Fuel pump (many wires)
Oil pressure (many wires)


Speedo; hook up your speed sensor wires to your speedometer wires, simple, but with one catch.  Your speedometer doesn’t go high enough.  Make sure you correct this.  I’m going a different rout and getting an aftermarket pulse sensing speedometer to go with my pulse sensing transmission sensor.

ECU ignition power; I used the wire that was for the Fiero ECU ignition power and used it for the Holley ignition power.  What a concept.

ECU constant power; I used the wire that used to supply constant power to the fuel pump relay and the Fiero ECU and used it for the Holley ECU constant power.  The Holley ECU controls the fuel pump through it’s own relay (already wired into the harness that was prepared by CHRFab).  Also don’t forget to replace the fuel pump fuse with one of a higher rating.  Alternately you could run a wire from the battery to the Holley ECU, since it has it’s own fuse, but I figured that I’d skip the need to run the extra wire.

Fuel pump; First off, you need a higher flow fuel pump, so get one and install that into your fuel tank.  I got the high flow fuel pump from the Fiero Store online, I’ll let you know if it’s going to be big enough.  I used this fuel pump because if it availability and convenience, it’s a straight drop in, even has the right connector on it.  For the wiring, the Fiero fuel pump power goes through a parallel circuit with the ECU.  The power comes from the fuel pump fuse goes to the fuel pump relay (pin 30) and to the constant power for the ECU, the switched power goes from the ECU to the coil for the fuel pump relay.  The power for the fuel pump also comes from the oil pressure switch.  This is supposed to be a protection circuit for the motor.  It looks complicated when you start tracing the wires but it’s quite simple.  The ECU turns on the fuel pump, once the motor is started and running, the ECU cuts the power to the fuel pump relay coil, but because the power for the fuel pump also comes from the oil pressure switch and the motor is running, so there is oil pressure, this switch is closed (that means power runs thought the switch) therefore latching the fuel pump on until the oil pressure drops to zero.  Then the switch opens and therefore cuts the power to the fuel pump.  But if you are using the Holley computer (or the Northstar computer for that matter) you don’t have to worry about this circuit, because the computer will totally control the fuel pump relay.  What I did was find the wire that went from the fuel pump relay to the fuel pump and tapped into that wire (on the engine harness side, at the connector C 203).  That way I didn’t have to rewire the fuel pump at all.  So the power went (and still goes) through C 203 to the fuel pump relay and then back through C 203, down the body harness that goes through the fire wall on the passenger side, through another connector (C 502) then finally to the fuel pump.

Oil pressure sensor; I reported having a problem with the oil pressure calibration, this can be easily fixed by swapping the oil pressure sensor on the Northstar for the one on the Fiero (here as well, I recommend getting a new sensor).  You should have 3 wires (may have 4) coming out of your oil pressure sensor on the Fiero.  One is for your oil pressure gauge (may have 2 wires), and the other two are for the cut off switch for the fuel pump.  Of course this will depend on the options with your Fiero.  Just make sure you trace your wires back and know where they go.  Of course, you won't need the old fuel pump switch wires, so just ignore them for now.  It isn’t possible to use the Northstar Oil pressure sensor for you Fiero gauge because the Northstar uses a switch that opens (breaking the circuit) once 1 to 4.5 psi are obtained, where you Fiero uses a variable resistor that increases in resistance to 90 ohms when full pressure is obtained.

Aaron

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Edited for insomnia.

(http://www.fierodrivers.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=765.0;attach=338)

The computer location, if you look closely at it you can see the tack and fan switch wires attached to the harness that comes through the fire wall on the pasenger side.

(http://www.fierodrivers.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=765.0;attach=339)

Great writeup ont he wiring!! Im nearly at that point in my project. One thing I did do was toss the Fiero AUX gauges in Favour of autometer.. I just figured it would be easier in a lot of cases.

you have taken a lot of the guess work out for me , thanks and keep up the good work!

JM

Please forgive me, I seem to have made a few errors in the electrical right up.  Instead of having errors in this write-up and then corrected in a latter post, I’m just going to edit the original post.

For some reason I decided to do the write-up in the wee hours of the morning after having only two hours of sleep from the night before.  And because I didn’t have my notes handy I did it all from memory.  Not a good idea.  So now I have my notes in front of me and should be prepared to fix the troubled arias.

If there are any mistakes here and someone is sure of it, or has more information to post on the subject at hand, feel free to do so.  This write-up is intended to help others, and the more information there is here the less guessing someone else may have to do.

Aaron

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Battery relocation:

I chose to relocate the battery to the front of the car.  As far forward as possible.  The intention here is to fix a little bit of the weight distribution on the car.  The battery would have fit back into it’s original location with only slight modification to the battery tray, but I decided that this wasn’t an optimal solution.

I’m not using the traditional mounting system that most people adopt, with the battery in the spare tire location.  I’m using a method inspired my a local Ottawa Fiero Club member.  I mounted the battery under the right side headlight assembly.

I used isolated battery post terminals in the traditional location, in case the need ever arises to boost the car or charge the battery etc...

A set of cables were run to the front of the car.  For the power cable I used a 1/0 AWG although only a 2 gauge cable was required (I used what I had on hand).  For ground I used two 4 AWG cables.  One followed the power cable and the other was grounded to the body.  The body was then grounded to the engine with two separate 4 AWG cables.  I can’t stress enough the need for proper grounding.  You should ground the transmission to the engine as well, and the body to the ground (Earth).

Aaron

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(http://www.fierodrivers.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=765.0;attach=340)

Battery Tray:

The headlight and motor assembly were removed the size of the hole calculated then cut out.  The battery tray was bent up on a brake press, then brackets were added to the tray so the battery could be fastened to it.  The tray was then bolted into its new location and cables run.  The depth of the tray was carefully calculated so that the support for the front facia could be simply modified.

Aaron

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(http://www.fierodrivers.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=765.0;attach=341)

Cool, thanks for the pics.  I may have missed it...but what gage aluminum/steel did you use?

Pete

I used 1/8” thick 5052-H32 aluminum sheet to make the battery tray and 3/16” thick aluminum (same) sheet to make the bottom bracket that sandwiched the front bumper facia to the bottom of the battery tray.  The unit is very light.  I also used a spiral cell battery which is 20% lighter and will produce more power for my monster starter.

For those that don’t know, 5052 alumium is a high corrosion resistant aluminum, often used for marine applications where high salt water resistance is required.  H32 is a finishing process that basically means the material has been stress hardened and treated.

I should also note that the routing of the power cable to the positive terminal on the battery could have been done better.  There is barely enough room to clear the headlight assembly.  It might be better and easier to rout the power cable up though the opening made for the battery tray.  It would have been much easier for me to see this if I had put in the battery tray before I routed the cables.

The ground cables however work well the way they are shown in the photos.

Aaron

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(http://www.fierodrivers.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=765.0;attach=1189)

Car looks GREAT!

Throttle Cable

I used the stock Fiero throttle cable.  It’s a little tight but will work.

For this I got two pieced of ¼ inch aluminum and carved out the shape as can be seen from the photo.  One of the center hole cut-outs are wider than the other, this is so the cable lock will work with the new bracket. On the photo showing the back side of the brackets you can see the inside notch that retains the Fiero cable lock.  The reason I used two pieces of ¼ inch alumium instead of a half inch piece is because it’s much easier to make the notch if the pieces are thinner (I used a hammer and chisel after drilling out a hole).  Also using the bracket in this manner meant that no modification would have to be made to the cable itself.  The hole in the Northstar steel bracket had to be opened up a bit to accept the Fiero cable.  The Northstar throttle operates from idle to WOT without having to modify the peddle travel.

In the photo you can see that in a pinch a machine screw can be used to retain the cable wire however, I later made a proper pin with retaining clip to hold the cable in place.

Alternately; if you were to just make a square hole 14mm by 14mm, in the steel bracket you could just plug the cable in there, but you would then have to alter (or adjust) the length of wire to get the right actuation length.

Aaron

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(http://www.fierodrivers.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=765.0;attach=345)

The back of the brackets.  From here you can see the notch that retains the cable.
(http://www.fierodrivers.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=765.0;attach=346)

The hole had to be opened up a bit and the bracket was bolted on.

(http://www.fierodrivers.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=765.0;attach=347)

The bracket and cable installed.  At the bottom you can see the screw used to hold the cable wire in place wile testing was done.

(http://www.fierodrivers.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=765.0;attach=348)

Wow Aaron!!!

its all coming together nicely now :D
i cant wait for mine :D

Here is a closer look at the motor mounts, not yet installed.  Rubber on the top and bottom.  The bottom part of the bracket is welded to he cradle and a large bolt hole is then drilled through everything to accomodate an M10, 10.9 bolt and Locking nuts (or equivelant).  I used two nuts on each bolt and locked them together.  this is because there shouldn't be much compression on the rubber but I wanted a good solid lock on the nut.

Aaron

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(http://www.fierodrivers.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=765.0;attach=351)

oh man i have a feeling christmas will eb coming early this year, 11.5 month early :D

Hey Aaron!

What stage is your car at now? Does it drive yet? Is it ready for a 1/4 mile test? MAN....I cant wait until you start testing this machine.....your gonna die man...its too powerfull!  ;D

LIKE....its gonna be a pure drifting machine with the torque your gonna have!

I show all my friends this section of the site (even my friends out in BC) and they wanna see some results too. YOU HAVE A FAN CLUB NOW!

Can I come and join you when you decide to bring the monsto-machine to the 1/4 track? I wanna see it in action! I'll bring beer for the victory dance.

Dont forget ....there is a guy with a Prelude who runs 15's who thinks its the fastest thing on the road...he disses Fieros to the point where it pisses ME off....after you have everything tuned I will invite him out!

(I will tell him its stock)!

MAY THE FORCE BE WITH YOU!

Boot;

My car is running but the computer still needs to be tuned.  I’m waiting until the spring to give it a good run somewhere so that I can tune up the fuel tables.

The exhaust is being routed now, after which all that is left is proper routing for the air intake.  I have a temporary setup for the air intake now, but I’d like to route it into the original Fiero location in order to catch some colder air.

Although this is all that’s left for the Northstar conversion, I’m not even close to being done with my car.

At some time as well I’m going to gain another 50 to 80 hp by putting new cams and valve springs in.

I expect to be running low 12’s with my power to weight ratio, so your buddy with the 15 second yawner better have some good excuses ready.  Dan also should be running in the high 12’s or low 13’s as well as Brian in the spring.

I’m not sure why your buddy thinks his car is so fast since there are many Honda’s in Ottawa on the bottle.  Any one of them should be able to make short work of a 15 second car.

Aaron

.

I see that propane injection is becoming popular. Could it be because of some localities outlawing nitros? Will do more investigating

CAN YOU MAKE ME ONE??? that is the most beautifull thing I have seen in a long time!!! Wow! that looks like it was purchased at GM when the Fiero was in production. I love it!

How much???

SWEET!

Let me know when the valve train gets done. I will bring some tools and lend a hand. I wanna see inside your engine!!!

Also....my "BUDDY" thinks his car is so fast because 1) hes a friggn idiot and 2) he has never had his ass handed to him before. Funny....cause if you race him he will get his ass shot at him not just handed!

So you think you will be running 12's eh! Well...if you can figure out a way to keep the car from flipping over and over from the torque just from reving the engine yeah you might have a chance at 12's. Once that problem is solved you can start working on a way to keep the car from lifting off and/or bursting into flame with no warning just because you have way too much engine! "Yeah I have a Northstar engine in there....YEP....I just" ...!!BOOM!! *car bursts into flame* "yeah it does that from time to time.....too much power"

I hope you have a small fortune saved up for tires....!  ;)

......gonna be sick....simply sick.....dont forget to invite me to the trial run....Call it "D" day for "Do or Die Day".

Aaron, when is the unvieling? Boot, DaMund, and I really really wanna hear this beast!

If you really want to hear it, I'll be woring on the exhaust this comming Tuesday night (24th Feb).  Boot can use the lathe, and you can pick up your computer.

Anyone can come.


Aaron

.

saweet...I will book the time off werk! w00t!

aaron did you recieve my checque in the mail.? hoping ya did, and the mounts work great. i just finished test fitting so, i'll dis assemble and take detailed pics in the next few days

All is well.

I’m glad to hear that the mounts work out well.  After all I was only taking an educated guess on the difference in mounting an 87 vs an 88.  Now I can take off the excess material on my templates and be sure of the fit.

Have you done a complete pre-fit, to see how everything in the engine bay clears?

Can’t wait to see those pics.

Aaron

.

What time will you be there till (tomorrow), may drop by on my way home from work...

I’ll be at work basically until midnight, or so.

If you come into the front parking lot check the inset front door (to the left), I will leave it ajar.  Just come in and look for the noise, or give a halloo.  If I’m out to get something to eat or something there will be a note on the door with an ETA.

Aaron

.

the mounts did need a minor bit of grinding for clearance on the front thicker mount, other than that, they are in i'll have pics wiht in the week i hope, i'm waiting for my alum, cradle mounts to be finished. it helps having and engineer with a lathe on your side. and then just the flywheel. by the way where di you get your flywheel,

Did you read this thread?  Lol

I got my flywheel from CHRFab, it wasn’t quite the right fit.  I had to shave off 4mm from the face and 2mm from the back so that there wouldn’t be any future problems.  Alan told me that he would notify his manufacture so that there wouldn’t be a problem for future Fiero applications.

Aaron

.

aaron88,

Boot and I will be dere shortly after 8pm...he has Tae Kwan Do until 730

me done reed so gooder.
hahhaa i forgot you posted where you got it :p

Went to the shop last night. Checked out the northstar engine...WOW....Aaron does NICE work.

The engine sounded healthy but the computer had a few problems calculating the AF mix. Prob cause 1/2 the sensors are still unpluged but whatever.....tuning will come after!

We helped install the exhaust system last night. Lotsa bends, lotsa work on Aarons part but his patients is stronger than the steel he plays with.....He welded it up and it sounded pretty good. We trimmed the pipes so he can throw some nice tips on and then we got sleepy and left at midnight while Aaron was installing the exhaust hangers!

Everything looked REALLY good, engine sounded healthy, shop was cool as hell and I cant wait until I get to ride shotgun while Aaron winds up that V8!

Oh yeah..Gizmo (I think) showed up also....WADDUP man! Hope to see you all again and maybe meet more of the Fiero club!

LA

Thanks;

The only sensor the computer can see that isn’t plugged in is the manifold air temperature sensor, and it’s plugged in, it’s just not in the intake.  All the sensors that still need to be added are the ones to run my gauges.  No biggie.  The motor is running too lean though, I’ll deal with that as soon as I get that laptop.

Thanks for the help guys, Mark and Boot left before I could really get their hands dirty, but Nick helped me with a few of the brackets.  I like your thought process by the way Nick, you can help me any day.

I’ll post some pictures as soon as I have time.

As for the sound, I’m very pleased with it.  I chose a muffler that had very low flow restriction but was a little worried that it was going to be too loud.  As it turns out it’s very quiet, just a property of the geometry I guess.  Can anyone say sleeper?

Aaron

.

Yeah that exhaust DID sound good when it was on. It was A LOT quieter than I though!

Sorry we left so early but we both had work in the morning!

Let me know next time you need a hand and I will show up with my mechanics suit!

Question...Aaron. Do you have any tools at your work you could use to bore out a throttle body?

Also...I was thinking...the air temp sensor for sure needs to be in the air stream somewhere INSIDE the engine. As the air passes through the throttle body it will heat up and as it expands inside the intake manifold it will cool. I dont know what kind of resolution your temp sensor has but it should really help once its in the actual engine!

Also...what are your plans to tune the AF mix? I would like to know how you plan to accomplish this!

Let me know!

.....nice work...keep it up man your almost there...its REALLY comming along well since the last time I was out to pick up AKA's engine!

LA

Boot

I do not have the tools to bore out a throttle body.

My car does not have a supercharger in it, therefore; the amount the air heats up in the intake due to intake obstructions is less than one degree.  However once I get the intake properly plumbed to air outside my engine bay there will be a significant difference in temperature.  I will at that time make a concerted effort to properly install the MAT (or IAT) sensor.  Please note that my install is not complete yet.  There is much work yet to do.

As for the A/F mixture...I have to assume that you don’t know what a holley computer is like to tune.  It’s basically like this; everything on my engine (okay almost everything) is controlled by the computer, the computer has manual tuning tables.  Plug in your laptop and bring up the table for the thing you want to tune and basically change the values depending on your sensor readings.  For example lets say you wanted to tune you’re A/F mixture, you would bring up you “Main Fuel Map” and adjust your pulse width for any particular rpm and MAP sensor position that your sensors have told you need to be modified.  I’ll attach a scanned page from my 100 page booklet that holley gives you on how to tune your computer.


Aaron

.

(http://www.fierodrivers.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=765.0;attach=385)

I finally had time to get the photos off my camera that I took the night we finished the exhaust.  Basically it’s just a matter of finding the right bend radius and putting it together.

I went out and got 10 feet of 2 inch exhaust tubing and then made a number of bends on a pipe bender.  However the pipe bender at my work is not very good and doesn’t make tight bends.  So as I found out, the front (or right) manifold was not a problem, but when it came the rear (left) manifold I had to go out and get me some 90° bend elbows from Canadian tire to make some really tight bends, and on top of that I had to cheat a little.  I used new exhaust brackets (the old ones would not work well).

But here it is.  As I said before I removed the bottom trunk aria to make room for the mufflers.  I also wanted a quiet exhaust so I went with a larger muffler than the standard glass pack.

The trunk was then fitted with a new bolt in aluminum bottom with heat shield.


Aaron

.

(http://www.fierodrivers.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=765.0;attach=386)

aaron i have a quick question, what bolts did you use to bolt up the flywheel, i'm having a heck of a time finding 8x25mm flywheel bolts, infact they are not offerd by atp. and the do anythign to do with tranny's

There are a number of fastener stors here in ottawa that carry whatever you may need.  But if you can't get what you need there you shold be able to get it online.  I had a link somewhere...were was that?  Got it.

http://www.boltdepot.com./product.aspx?cc=20&cs=77&cm=22&cd=1328

You will likely have to shave off some of the head thickness, but make sure there is still 4 mm left.  As I stated in this thread, check to make sure the clutch clears the transmission bell housing when new and clears the bolt heads when compleatly worn out.

If for some reason you can't get the bolts you need online, I can get them for you.


Aaron

.

I finally got a chance to install the water temp sensor for the Fiero gauge and the Fiero oil pressure sensor.

Basically in order to get the threads to fit I used pipe bushing reducers ( I was going to make new pipe threads but it wasn’t worth the trouble).

Water temp sensor: As stated before, there is a pipe thread plug already in the coolant cross-over manifold that can be adapted for the water temperature sensor.  There are two wires, one is for the temperature gauge and the other is for the idiot light, both in the Fiero gauge cluster.  The power is grounded through the casing to the manifold.  To find out which wire is which, use an ohm meter.  The resistance from the casing to the idiot light switch pin should be infinite, and the resistance from the water temperature gauge pin to the casing should be about 3 to 4 kilo-ohm’s, depending on the sensor temperature when you check it. Remove the plug in the coolant manifold and replace in with the pipe bushing adapter.  The thread in the manifold is 1/2” pipe thread and the one on the Fiero sensor is 3/8” pipe thread.  So you will need an adapter from 1/2” to 3/8” (as seen it the photo).  These you should be able to pick up at your local hardware store.  Then just put in your water temperature sensor and hook it up to the corresponding gauges.  I didn’t feel like paying the money that GM was asking for, for the new connector since the old one on the Fiero was already heat damaged and cracked, so I just soldered on some wires and used my own connector (your going to want a connector of some sort just in case you have to drop the motor for any reason.

Oil pressure sensor:  This is very simple so no photos are provided.  The pipe bushing adapter you will need for this is 3/8” pipe thread to 1/4” pipe thread (sensor).  Remove the Northstar oil pressure switch and insert the adapter then the Fiero oil pressure sensor.  Two of the pins will have infinite resistance to the block, those are for the old fuel pump relay.  The other one should read a few kilo-ohm’s, that’s for the gauge (if you have it).

As I have said before, it’s a really good idea to get new gauges for this and not re-use the old ones.  Although you can.

Aaron

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Update:

Update on the Fiero coolant temperature gage mounting location.  I finally got around to checking it and I did mount it in the EGR system (thanks for bringing this to my attention).  I’m not sure how I could have made this mistake but I did.  It must have had something to do with the long hours I was working or the lack of sleep.

Although this location is not the right location to mount this sensor it does seem to work.  The reason for this is because it’s so close to the coolant that it keeps a close temperature to it, however it will not keep an accurate temperature and it will take longer to respond to temperature changes due to the transfer from air and then to the sensor.  It also picks up a lot of radiant heat off the block.  I will be moving this sensor into a proper location this winter or coming spring, so look for update pic’s then.

(http://www.fierodrivers.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=765.0;attach=412)

looking good aaron. i have a quick question. i just got my computer from chrfab. and i'm have ing a bitch of a time finding two of the sensors. the cam sensor was easy , but the 2 plugs lables ign top, and ign bot. i cant find where these go. are they hidden in the front of the good looking head, or some where on the ugly head, or what. i wish it was easier to locate diagrams for the N*

If your not talking about the upper and lowing crank sensors then I’m not sure what you are looking for.  I therefore have to assume that your wiring is slightly different.

Crank sensors are behind the manifold just up and right of the oil filter.

Aaron

.

(http://www.fierodrivers.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=765.0;attach=413)

ok i found those i was just on the crack :p now all i need to do is either hook up the oil cooler or make a bypass. then fire it up

hey arron di dyou get the patch cable with your computer. to tune it. cause they dont include that anymore with the computer. at least not with mine. i'd assume it couldbe made easy. i would just need to know where each of the wires go.

Hey, what's up!  I'm new to the Forum (linked to it via PFF).

I read part of this thread last fall, and since I'm buying an 88 in the next couple of weeks and planning on switching the N* install from my 86 to the new 88, I thought I'd read up on your Northstar install again.  You've made some awesome progress!  I'm very impressed!

I have a couple of questions for you though.  What kind of mufflers did you end up using (I don't think you ever listed them) and would you be willing to sell another set of the engine mounts for the 88 cradle?  If so, please email me and let me know (phorne_tca@yahoo.com).  You've got about the cleanest setup I've seen as far as mounts go!

Anyway, keep up the great work and post some 1/4 times when you have it running!  The anticipation of having mine come to life is killing me and your success this far makes it even that much more exciting for me!  :)

Thanks!

Patrick Horne,
phorne_tca@yahoo.com

Hellfish:  I’ll try to get those pin out’s for you latter this week.  I almost didn’t get the cable, but he does have it if you ask for it.

Patrick:  The mufflers I used were a Canadian Tire Special.  Basically: one pipe going in, one pipe coming out, and nothing between them.  I think they were Cherry Bomb (brand name) Turbo mufflers.  Something like 28 dollars each.  Stainless Steel tips, 16 dollars each (not shown).  Some things I will spend money on and some things I will not.  Basically, I’m not going to pay 150 dollars each for a muffler that has the same flow restriction but makes more noise.  Some people agree and some disagree.

Aaron

.

thanks for your help wiht the pin outs everythign else is pretty much coming to gether now

any word on those pin outs aaron? i called holley and they are useless. and no one in winnipeg can help either. this is getting frustrating

If anyone wants to actually see what I did for the trunk floor?  Basically; I cut out the bottom portion of the trunk and then installed a bunch of nutcerts.  The floor piece has three bends in it.  one in the middle to fit the contour of the trunk better and the other at the back so to seal against the back wall.  All along the sealing surface is weatherstriping.  A heat shield was also added.

Aaron

.

(http://www.fierodrivers.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=765.0;attach=423)

so aaron what is left to do on your car? it seems almost done. or has it been ready to drive, just you want it 100% done when you acually pull it out.

It’s driveable now, but I’m still tuning the computer.  Unfortunately that involves a lot of driving and hard acceleration.  It’s on the road now but won’t be officially on the road until sometime next week.

Also I still have to put in the front shocks and springs.

Aaron

.

ya tuning is goign to take alot of time. i have mine running but it wont idle, but i'm assuming that it is because there was no way to predict how it would run at 0 degreess, on CHRfabs part. that and the IAC is beina bitch
i'm also tryign not to piss the neighbors off to much :D

Basically all the values for air temperature compensation will have to be modified, because on my computer they weren’t done right (the increase due to air temp was too small).  Same as Idol Air Control and a few other things.  Expect to have to modify all the tables, (and that’s a lot of tables).  Start from what they suggest and move on in the order the book suggests.

In case you were wondering the Holley book says, air density increases aprox. 1% for every 11°F drop in temp.  It’s not quite true because the rate of change changes with the temperature but that’ll give you a very good starting point.

Aaron

.

well my first hurdle was the bad MAP sensor, so that was why i was suuuuuuuuuper rich. but now i have another one, and it's working better
but i still cant get a good idle but all the tables will need to be altered

Passed E-Test today no problem.

Aaron

.

If anyone wants to know what other people thought after getting a ride, check out this thread.

http://www.fierodrivers.com/forum/index.php?board=2;action=display;threadid=1637

Now that I’m on the road with this beast, this is how you will recognize me.

Aaron

.

(http://www.fierodrivers.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=765.0;attach=436)

Cripes if Eric was given the gears over his simple licence plate cover, you're going to be in deep doo-doo for your rear plate!   ;) ;D

Okay so I blanked out the plate on the photo, but I was referring to the exhaust.  I just think it’s a good idea to blank the plate on internet photo’s.

Aaron

.

You e-teted it as a 8 or as a stock 88?
Mine is going in next? week.

I E-Tested as a hot-rod, V8, 4.6L (no cat's)

I wasn't able to go to Canadian tire to get this done because they had no idea how to test a hot-rod.  I went to the dealer to get it done.  They let me go in with the car and hook up my computer while they tested (I don't trust the mechanics to not hot-rod).

Aaron

.

Aaron,

What made you choose the Holley Commander over other aftermarket PCMs, or "hacking" a Caddy PCM?

-d.

Aaron -- which dealer?

Basically the story goes like this.

I had a friend of mine ask a friend of his if he would consider working on my Caddy computer for me.  I went to this guy because he is so good that it would be imposable to get better support from the GM engineers that wrote the code themselves.  This guy is that good.  But anyway; when this guy looked at the Cadillac computer he made a few discoveries that would require many hours of labour to remedy.  Basically if I was going to do the job right (I don’t like doing it any other way) one of the chips on the board was going to have to be de-soldered have the code extracted and a new reprogrammable one put in it’s place.  Outside of that there would still be an interface program to write and table tuning to do.  So although Stuart (computer guy) was willing to go through the labour, that expensive Holley Commander 950 was starting to look like a lot less trouble.  Two days later I told Stuart that I was going to go the Holley route, because to be honest, neither him or I had the time to spare.



Bennett in Carleton Place.


Aaron

.

Time for a little update;

The clutch is holding up, well but it’s taking a little getting used to. It engages right on the floor.  I’m going to have to make a little notch in the carpet to get it to feel right, because as it is now I have to push fairly hard into the carpet to get the clutch fully disengaged.  Also notable is that I can’t leave my foot resting on the clutch peddle between shifts because even that much pressure on the clutch is enough to make it slip at full torque.  Alternately I could have got the Kevlar clutch and saved a bit of money but then I wouldn’t have gotten a clutch with such a good feel (the Kevlar clutch would have been all grabby and chattery during normal driving).  But it’s a matter of personal preference as usual.

The transmission seems to be fine and the right axle has not given me any trouble.  I suspected that I might have a problem with the right (longer) axle because of the fact that I moved the motor (and therefore transmission) over but used the same axles.  I may still decide to add a half shaft and go with equal length axles but as it is now both tires will spin equally on take off, so there isn’t much need for one right now, but I’ll have to see how much abuse the transmission will take before making a final decision.

Full throttle; no problem
Spinning the tires; no problem
All out rev her up and launch from a stop; not a good idea, in fact I haven’t done this and don’t plan on doing it.  I can launch fairly fast and with some tire spin but I fear giving it everything is going to result in loss of transmission parts.  So as far as how I’m driving the car?  And how hard one can drive the car with the combination of engine and transmission that I have?  I drive as hard as I want in any gear, I just don’t rev then drop the clutch.  Instead I engage the clutch then hammer the gas, and trust me this is more than enough to spin the tires so be careful.

Spark advance;
I’m still working on this.  The holley commander that I got from CHRFab did not come with the knock sensor wiring.  Allen tells me that he never hooks up the sensor.  This doesn’t boad well with me.  Therefore I’m going too hook up the sensor to an oscilloscope to find out how to get it wired into the computer.  The thing is (I’m told) that with an aluminum block it’s much more tricky to get a knock sensor to work properly.  But I’ll get it to work with the holley and I’m sure it’ll be simple in the end.  Once I have the oscilloscope hooked up I should be able to tune the spark tables fairly well, but for now the jury is still out.

Aaron

.

Glad you mentioned this.  It gives me something else to keep an eye out for when I start researching aftermarket PCMs more closely!

The holley commander does have a functions for the knock sensor but it just wasn’t wired up.  However; one thing I was disappointed with was that although there was a knock sensor function on the Holley Commander it doesn’t have a knock counter that I can find anywhere.

Aaron

.

Still running speedo-less?

http://www.dakotadigital.com/Detail.cfm/-/Category=01/PartNumber=SGI-5/product.htm

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!  That was the last piece of the puzzle I was looking for!  Btw - where does the knock sensor plug in on the holley?  It's not even listed in the manual...  Do I put it on one of the "auxillary inputs" that handle A/C requests and all that?

I haven’t had too much time to work on the wiring, but I did have time to hook up the oscilloscope.  I discovered a few interesting things.  For one there is a hell of a lot of noise coming off that block through the knock sensor.  I was recording a little over 10V at full throttle.  When I got a knock it would spike at a little over 15V.

I’ll have to do a little research to find out what kind of input the computer wants, but once I have that I’ll know if I have to make a little circuit or not.

Once you have the spark advanced (to the max minus a few) on this motor it really livens up after 4500 rpm, and I mean really livens up.  So much so that I can’t even get enough fuel into the cylinders.  I’m going to have to back up the spark until I can get some bigger injectors.

More research to come.

Aaron

.

The stock size rad isn't going to be good enough for me (or should I say the way I drive sometimes, on the track of course).

Although the stock radiator will sufficiently cool the motor it doesn’t respond fast enough for my liking.  While I was doing my full throttle runs to advance the spark I was noticing that the temperature was climbing a little high for my liking (around 228°F).  I was doing run after run but this is part of the fun after all. I found that it would take about 4 consecutive runs of about 1/4 mile to get the temperature up, and about 4 minutes to get the temperature down to 212 again by driving reasonably.  I’m looking for a sustainable 215 to 219°F range.

Allan from CHRFab does say that from his experience maximum power on the dino was achieved with an engine temperature around 215°F.  Aluminum motors like to run a little warmer on the coolant.

But at the same time I don’t want the coolant to ever go above 225, and it’s doing it now.  So to make a long story shorter I’m going to replace my radiator at some point with a 4 core radiator.

Aaron

.
EDIT EDIT EDIT EDIT EDIT EDIT EDIT EDIT EDIT EDIT EDIT EDIT


I have a correction to post in regards to the size of radiator needed.

I did a whole lot more driving last night (at a track of course) and found that no matter how hard I drive the car the temp will stay under 220°F if I don’t stop the car.  As long as one stays rolling, the car will not overheat.  (the stock Northstar computer doesn’t turn on the rad fan until 225°F)

The reason I was having trouble before was because I would do about 4 quarter miles in a row and then pull over to adjust the tables.  The pulling over part is the reason I was having trouble with the higher heat.

So whether you need a 4 core rad or not depends entirely on what kind of driving you plan on doing.

I have now postponed my purchase of a 4 core rad until much later, maybe one or two years from now.


Aaron

.

A closer look at how I cut my deck lid hinge.

There is more than enough strength in the bracket if it’s cut properly.  First you want to make sure that there is a good radius on the cut (as indicated by arrow one).  Make sure there are no sharp edges or corners in the radius.  Secondly you want to keep the entire bend closest to the fire wall (as indicated with arrow 2).  Remember, the two brackets work together.  You can cut one or the other but not both.

Aaron

.

(http://www.fierodrivers.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=765.0;attach=504)

Fiero Coolant Temp Gauge Hook-up:

I received a concerned PM on this matter and then did a little investigation.  It seems that the way I hooked up my Fiero coolant gauge sensor may not be suitable for all model years of the Northstar motor.  I found this post on PFF (by ryan.hess about ¾ of the way down)
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/043632-2.html
It seems to indicate that for 93 to 95 Northstars the plug I used on the coolant crossover manifold opens to the EGR gas and not the coolant.  The 96 to 99 models are open to coolant on the other side of the plug.  I’m not sure if this means that 2000 + models don’t even have the plug, but I will find out what is going on with this coolant manifold and post an update.

Alternately ryan.hess gives a viable solution to an alternate location for the sensor, however; this is the ideal location to bleed out all the remaining air from the block when filling the coolant system.  Therefore I would have to recommend against this location for that reason only (it can be really hard to get the air out of the system without this throttle body coolant line).

Aaron

.

Wait a sec...  You're running a stock 98 engine right?  How could it be going lean?   :o

(Sorry, but my internet has been down for a few days)

To answer the previous question, I’m advancing the spark.  So because I’m igniting the fuel earlier and it’s at a higher mean pressure, the fuel has more time to burn and will also burn faster, therefore burn more fuel in the same given time (one stroke).

Basically advancing the spark does some things that can be considered beneficial for peak performance.  Because the motor has already been designed to resist knock by having modest spark tables (due to the fact that the manufacture knows that the owner of said motor may decide to use regular gas).  Therefore advancing the spark while using 91 to 92 octane fuel can allow one to make better use of the fuel going into the cylinder to burn, but only if the geometry of the stroke will accommodate it.  Some of the advantageous things are; starting the burn earlier so that more fuel can be burned and getting the energy of the expanding gas in the most favourable position of stroke.

There are a number of things that determine the amount of power you can get out of one stroke.  Spark advance simply determines the timing of the process.  Other things to consider are the temperature of the piston head and cylinder walls, the resistance of the fuel to igniting under pressure (indicated by the octane rating), the amount of fuel in the cylinder, the amount of oxygen in the cylinder, the flame propagation rate of said fuel under the pressure of compression before ignition (aprox 147 psi for the Northstar) and the changing rate thereafter as the pressure increases and then decreases (due to burn and stroke).  The size of the bore, the length of the stroke, the average angle the piston rod acts on the crank at the point of mean exertion due to ignition, and the strength of all components involved (to determine the feasibility of any power increase and it’s safety factor).

Now before I go on I think I should mention that I don’t know much about auto mechanics nor do I know much about the combustion process, but what I do know and understand is physics.

Instead of going through the whole calculation manually (which would only give me a starting point anyway) I’m going to make some assumptions and move on form there.

Assuming that the motor has been designed properly, I’m going to negate most of everything aforementioned in my experiment in order to make it as understandable as possible.  Advancing the spark may not yield more power and the reason for this has to do with the factors mentioned above.  But the thing to remember is that most motors have been designed with a certain octane in mind.  Also most motors these days will produce maximum power somewhere between maximum advance before knock and a few degrees after that, at an O2 voltage of about .84v.  So what one must do; is make up several spark and corresponding fuel tables (varying advance along the table) and run them all on a Dino, then mix and match according to the results and re-test.  Until I do this I won’t know what the most advantageous advance is.

But one thing I do know is that I can’t even do this experiment with the fuel injectors I have now, because they simply will not spray enough fuel.  The farther I advance the spark more fuel I need to add and as it stands now I can’t even approach the maximum advance and get near enough fuel in the cylinder.  My duty cycle is approaching 90% and I’m only at 32° total advance.  My knock sensor testing showed that I should be able to advance a few degrees more all across the table before knocking.

Also something else to take into consideration is the fact that I may be adding more aggressive cams and stiffer valve springs.  If I do this I will definitely need much larger injectors simply due to the fact that I will have less time to inject fuel (due to a higher rpm), the duty cycle on the injectors is already too high.  I’m trying to keep it below 80%.


Aaron

.

Wow, I just learned something  :o  So when you get it completely tuned, you gonna post the fuel/spark tables here?  ;D

I will post the fuel and spark tables when I’m done.

Well I finally got around to calling Holley and asking them for the knock control information.  I was told that in order to make things easy there was a Holley sub-harness I could buy that would plug into the existing one (Holley part number 534-136), interfacing with (Holley Commander 950) pin B7 (knock control).  Basically all you need is a stock GM knock module to plug into the knock sensor on one end and pin B7 on the other (you don’t really need their harness but it might make things easier).  The only problem is that the Northstar isn’t an iron block.  And I’m not sure about this but I’m pretty sure about this, that with an aluminum block you can’t use an iron block knock module.  The vibration transferred through the two blocks are very different.  All of the GM aluminum block knock modules that I know of are multi pin units located inside the ECM.  This complicates things.

If someone could confirm what knock module would work for this application it may save me some time. :-\

I’m still a little busy to do this right away, but I should be able to get to this sometime in the next month.  I’ll either have instructions for using the stock Northstar module or have an alternate circuit to use.

The knock sensor wire is the little blue one running right next to the purple starter wire.  They both go under the intake on the front of the motor (right side).


Aaron

.

(http://www.fierodrivers.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=765.0;attach=588)

Couple things to post:

first off, the knock sensor is (as mentioned) located under the intake manifold for 96-99 (not sure about y2k+) models.  However, 93-95 the knock sensor is on the rear side of the engine, closest to the crank pulley. 

secondly, you were mentioning that when a knock occured, there was a 15V spike according to your scope.  I don't remember/know which pins on the holley have which functions, but I believe you can have a knock sensor input either be +12 or gnd.  It seems to me like it would be a fairly simple circuit to convert a 15V pulse into a 12V square pulse or ground pulse whichever the case may be.  Couple diodes/resisters and a transistor if a ground pulse is needed. 

hi all
i'm new to the forum and got in cause i liked the way you guy's run around the north*
i have one running fiero and one for parts and getting my 60 000 miles 4.6 this week off a 99 sls plus tranny and computer
only gonna go in the car when i pull car off the road next winter so it gives me a year to plan and developpe things for this beast

glad from central qc,only 3.5 hrs drive from ottawa

marc the stroker.

Congratulations on your choice and good luck with the work.  This thread is here to help people thinking about the northstar/manual conversion.

Aaron --- You get a weight on your machine yet?

not yet i'm turning my 2.8 over to my other car this winter
witch will bee running next summer ,since this body has a lot less rust to it
so i have plenty of work to do this winter.
but i will next summer
marc.

Update on the Fiero coolant temperature gage mounting location.  I finally got around to checking it and I did mount it in the EGR system.
It’s on this page:
http://www.fierodrivers.com/forum/index.php?topic=765.105

Aaron

.

Instead of relocating it, you could always just tee off the TB coolant line, and run it through the egr passage....  Just a thought. 

Aaron88: Where did you get your Holley Commander 950? Im still researching options at the moment, and thinking maybe the n* little brother.

Thanks; Rob

I’m sure it’s in here somewhere, but CHRFab
www.chrfab.com

Expenseve though, something like $1300 with wiring harness and cables.

Aaron


.

Got mine running yesterday

http://www.supermotors.org/getfile/169312//northstar.wmv

right click , save as

Hi Rob, are you looking for a V6 Shortstar? I have one or two kicking around that I'm not going to use anymore.


Joe

Aaron, what clutch did you use? I know you got the steel flywheel from CHRFab, but why did you not select a McLeod clutch that Alan also has available. I am sourcing the flywheel and clutch assembly for my 4.6/88GT and am undecided on the Spec stage II, Spec stage III or a McLeod from Alan. (I also bought the C950 from Alan)

I used a Ram HD clutch for one reason.  It is totally drivable.  It drives like a stock clutch but has a much harder clutch feel.  I wanted my car to be drivable in traffic.

Next time I change my clutch I’m going to try the Spec flywheel and stage 3K (now that they have one that’s streetable) clutch so that I can compare and report.

As far as I know Alan’s McLeod clutch is for the S10 (truck) transmission that he uses and I wasn’t sure it would work with the Getrag 282 transmission.  I didn’t want to gamble with it.  Maybe it will work, I didn’t even look into it only because I don’t know anything about McLeod.

Make sure, if you are going to get your flywheel from Alan that it’s the one for the Fiero and not the one for the S10.


Aaorn

.

I have the Spec Aluminum Flywheel and the spec Stage 3 clutch. The swap is all done , just need the suspension on. I beleive I am the first to use the Spec flywheel on a northstar thus far... The flywheel is really nice , but pricey @ $400 + shipping Plus Brokerage fees. IT was close to $1000 for the Combo clutch and flywheel.

Your driving it? So please do tell?????

I drove it all summer, it’s a wild ride.  Lots of power, handles well, it’s a good combination, but hard to explain.  I’ll have another video in the spring after the snow is gone.  I need to put the car on a serious diet though.  Going to try and get it down to 2400 lb.

What does it weight now?

You keep asking me that, but I really don't know because I still haven't taken it to the scales.  I have calculated the weight to be around 2750 without driver, but I don't know for sure yet.

Aaron

.

Sorry Aaron my last question was for him.
How is the Spec flywheel working out with the stage 3 clutch?

He'll know in March.

I though he said he was driving it???

The motor is running and he probably has the suspension together by now but, the weather here is nothing to be driving in yet.

just finished the exhaust , all 2.5" mandrel bent tubing and Dynomax UltraFlow Bullet mufflers.. I got the coilovers this morning... Should be driving the car in 4 weeks.

JM

The following are some good maps to start with (Holley Commander 950).

I will be modifying / updating some of the maps so check for updates

First: Engine Paramiters

(http://www.fierodrivers.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=765.0;attach=816)

Fuel Modifiers

(http://www.fierodrivers.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=765.0;attach=817)

Acceleration Enrichment

Check for updates in the spring on the "Rate of change of MAP Sensor"

(http://www.fierodrivers.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=765.0;attach=818)

Startup Enrichment vs. Engine Temperature

(http://www.fierodrivers.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=765.0;attach=819)

Fuel Map

This map should be rich.  The red indicates a pulsewidth that is a little too long.  For best results, use a wideband O2 sensor to get the air-fuel ratio around 12.6:1 (O2 Lambda .8 +) in the upper region.

(http://www.fierodrivers.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=765.0;attach=820)

Spark Map

This map should be fine with 91 octane fuel.  I’ve been running up to 35° but I can’t recommend that to others until I have my knock sensor working and posted.

(http://www.fierodrivers.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=765.0;attach=821)

Closed Loop Paramiters

I'm still working on "seconds between O2 compensation step changes".  Trying to dial it in better.

(http://www.fierodrivers.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=765.0;attach=822)

Idle Air Control

(http://www.fierodrivers.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=765.0;attach=823)

this is beautiful , and perfect timing too. I will be drivingthe car for the first time monday.

All thats left is the shift cables and 1/2 of the exhaust.

Ohhhhh Baby!!!

thanks again!

thanks aaron for all the gooooood data!
i'm actually dooing the tranny this winter
my 4.6 is standing next to me
and next winter will be headwork time.

marc from central qc.

hi Aaron
what are your comments about the Holley Commander 950? do they update it or is it pretty much the same year over year?  What are the strengths and shortcomings (if any) that you see?  I don't know if you had it since day 1 in your swap or if it is a new addition.....
I notice that CHRfab uses them and I am get the impression they like them, which is a good endorsement I think. 
I guess one of the things I am thinking about is flexibility, esp in fuel table setup (and size) as I hope someday to do a turbo and so I am considering all the options.  The big complaint I see about reusing my stock ECM and chip is the limited size of the fuel table; it simply doesn't allow enough points to be entered when you get into boost situations.
Comments?  Opinions? Etc?
thx
GP

Don't forget that you will still likely have to tune the throttle plate screw, to dial in the IAC position.

Fiero 308;

I don’t like that the Northstar has only four coil packs, or that the Holley 950 has only 5 wires to control the fuel injectors.  But, other than that, the holley commander allows for all the adjustability that one might want with their engine.  I don’t know if it will work with your motor but one could always just ask holley about that.

If you’re worried about the limited fuel control of your current ECM then before going all out I would first attempt a re-program of your ECM and invest in a wide-band O2 sensor and gauge (about 300 US) to see if you do need to go any further.  Could save yourself a lot of money that way.

Aaron

.

I uploaded the maps on sat night , the car runs a lot better. my Ultra short 2.5" Mandrel bent exhaust Shoots flames out when you come off a load @ 4000rpm or higher..

Im 2 shifter bushings away from driving this thing!!

here's a quick Vid.. So much for the sleeper , that sound is through the ful exhaust except for the 1 exhaust turnout. My brother was alseep , woke up and thought it was the UPS guy.

http://www.shaun.saturnet.net/pics/jonbag/MVI_0131.AVI

link fixed

http://www.shaun.saturnet.net/pics/Jonbag/MVI_0131.AVI

Beauty!   O0

Now, all I need is a set of loudspeakers in the trunk and an amp and I can  have my 4 cyl sound off  :D

Slammed Fiero;

So it looks like you aren’t going to have any trouble making it for that trip/show.

Aaron

.

Hopefully , I have one brake line that succombed to an open shoe grinder Ineed to fix.

The only issue right now is that the car overheats..but it hasn't been burped properly , so I will assume that is an easy fix. I have to finish wiring up my autometer gauges and I also have a vaccuum leak causing a high idle.

Now.. I have Plugged the vaccum port near the flapper door on the manifold and that cured an irratic idle. I have the brake booster hooked up and the other vaccuum line is plugged..but still a high idle. I followed your parameters exactly. The only thing it can be is the gasket between the two halfs of the throttle body which I seem to remember getting destroyed.

One thing that people doing this project may find easier than what you did is the throttle cable bracket. Your setup is ingenious but also requires some level of precision and machine work. What I did was take the stock Caddy Bracket and the stock Fiero bracket , Cut , Weld , Grind and paint..looks factory and took 20 minutes to do.

God Bless the man who invented the mig welder. I have found that a great deal of the cost in an engine install is tools and it really dictates the overall quality.  There are things I am going to be changing when I pull the motor this december for the heads / cam swap... and SP67 Turbo...

The Funn ever ends.  We should do a lapping day @ the new calabogie track.

make sure you bleed the air out of the system from one of the indicated poinst.  Kind of depends on what setup you used bet the two poins are accutally the same line.

(http://www.fierodrivers.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=765.0;attach=831)

I have actually thought of a much better way to do the same bracket.  Instead of making the aluminum hole square, just drill a large hole there and add an additional thin steel plate on the outside and punch a square hole in it.  It could be done with a hammer and chisel.  The whole bracket could be made in 15 min.  In the spring I'm going to make this bracket and take some photos.



That's going to be so much fun, I'm salivating just thingking about it.

Aaron

.

I deleted the TB coolant lines , no need for them with a summer car. Should be worth 1hp (haha)  I have a friend who owns a midas, he said they have a machine that can vaccuum out the air. Hopefully that solves the problem. I was reading your car never went over 220F , mine will hit that in about 10 min of running from dead cold.

That's probably why you still have air in the system.  Make sure the guy attaches his vacume line at the throttle body line indicated in the above pic.  This is the spot the motor is designed to bleed from.

Aaron

.

Aaron you running an inline filler neck?

Yes, but inline to what?

Inline filler neck , like on the coolant return line.

I have a 93 Corvette Surge tank I was thinking of using as well , butr iM not sure where to tap it into the system. I figured this would fix the lack of an inline filler neck.

Thoughts?

If you want to use a proper surge tank (the right way to do the overflow) then tap in the upper line on the serge tank to the line that use to go through your throttle body (photo on previous page) and the lower line on the surge tank to somewhere on the suction side of the heater core line (just T into it, the line that goes into where the thermostat is).  There is one catch to doing this, your upper line must be above the motor, that way you don’t introduce air into the system every time you stop the motor or take the cap off your surge tank.

You will no longer need the Fiero overflow tank.  You have two options, one put a pressure cap on the radiator that has a higher rating then that on your surge tank (keep an eye on the tank in case you have to top it up. Or two (the proper way) remove the Fiero tank and plug the line.

Cadillac pressure cap should be15 psi.

Aaron

P.S. Don't forget to add a few pellets of stop leak to the coolant.

.

mmmm... driving weather's coming back.....

Couple questions/concerns for Aaron -

I noticed your fuel map goes to 160+!?
  I got my map tuned to 12.6-12.8:1 (checked w/wideband), and the highest value I have is ~135...  Are you running low on fuel pressure or something?  Remember - the northstar's regulator is adjustable with a torx (loctited in place)..  iirc you should see around 40psi idle, 46psi with the vacuum line disconnected......

Anyways,
reading up on megasquirt's tuning page (1/3 way down color table):
http://www.megasquirt.info/manual/mtune.htm
they show that you don't want the whole table rich, but rather, most of it stoich or lean.  Right now I'm getting horrible gas mileage (~10mpg), and I'm pretty sure this is why.  (running open loop for the moment though)

I’m running 50 / 60 psi on my rail.

I know I’m running rich but I don’t have a wide band O2 sensor yet to make sure I’m running in the right range.  But I’m not too far off my narrow band O2 runs between .6 and .75 volts at WOT, and .5 volts during regular driving, so I’m not that far off.  I run in closed loop below half throttle and open loop above half throttle.  I’m getting 30 mpg hwy and 20 mpg fun time.

The fuel map is the first thing people will have to tune, and with this application everyone is going to have to tune their own fuel table anyway because I can’t guaranty that they are using the same intake, cams, filter, heads, motor… (you get the point).  Better rich than lean to start off with though.

Aaron

.

As soon as I get my Car here (2 weeks) I will be hitting the dyno with it and having it tuned with a wideband. Aarons maps are lightyears better than what CHRFab had done.

No shit!  Kinda makes me worry.......  I mean they WORK with these things 24/7/365... 

Well…it’s more like 8/5/250 minus vacation time, but I get the point.

I don’t want to talk ill of Alan (CHRFab) because he really does know his stuff, and maybe he didn’t bother giving me his best tuned maps because he knew I was going to be re-tuning the maps anyway but the maps I did get from him were only okay.  They would start the car, and the motor would not have blown up or been damaged, but the performance of the motor was being handicapped, with the original maps.

If you had your maps tuned professionally, there is still nothing wrong about having them double checked.  Have a look at your maps and compare them to the ones I have posted and decide for yourself if there is anything to be concerned about.

Don’t bother doing much of a comparison of the fuel map because that is an easy map to tune and will very from application to application.  The main thing on a fuel mat is to have it smooth and not going lean anywhere.

The spark map is also a function of application and will very depending on type of fuel being used and cams being used et-cetera.

The operating temperature range desired will have a large affect on the zeroing in of the other maps as well.

If you don’t have any expertise in this area I can take a look at your maps and let you know if additional tuning is required.

 Aaron

.

Oh come on!  You know darn well if you had a shop that worked on Northstars, you'd be dreaming about them too!   :D

could i have my motor running with a PRO SCAN2 tool or any of these scanning devices that are availlable .
my motor is a 98 and i have the oem harness and computer
with what i understand an obd2 system can be reprogrammed with such a device
since we can change the full pressure with the screw on the regulator it allows for plenty of tuning capacity .
now all is needed is a fuel rail that is haft decent,by this i meen something better than stock cause these have been knowed to cause fires cause they leak.
ive seen a guy building an mr2 with the same motor as ours that has one done
marc the stroker.

 I would like to think Aaron and all the guys who have contributed to this work. O0. Well done!  I am getting old and have been conned by my son into doing this conversion. We should be starting this fall. It seems like he is tired of the 3.4 conversion [we did while he was in college]. Now, he wants a real toy.His 84 GT [2.8]  was his first car bought in 1990. Thanks again as yhis will really help an old man out.

Lee

Bootstrap86;

Welcome to the board, and good luck with the project.

I try to help out when I can.  Most of the info is here, but some stuff for sure, will be a learning process.


Aaron

.

Well I drove the car on Sunday about 50Kms , no coolinbg problems. I failed to realize that the alternator NEEDS the small red wire on the caddy plug connected to a switched 12V , thankfully the car died a block from a  friends house , we charged the battery back up and made it home. The big power supply wire from the alternator to the battery is not enough to keep the car charged. northstars run horribly if the battery is even a bit low.

The car with silencers in the exhaust is still as loud as a nascar. Im not exagerating 1 bit here , it's the loudest street driven car I have ever heard (not good) 

One Major problem I ran into is the idle. It's irratic as hell. I spoke with alan @ chrfab and he advised me as how to set the IAC.. I went to the garage , hooked up the ECM to my laptop. Powered it up (turned the ignition key) Uploaded the new settings...if you just change single parameters it overwrites everythign else , so now I have the joy of re-entering in all of Aarons maps.. OHHH but it gets better , no for some reason the Laptop and the ECM aren't communicating , it just says ECM not powered up or connected.


anyone else had this problem? I emailed alan about it and Im just awaiting a response.

The car handles just like it did when the 2.8 was in there. The big brakes do a great job of hauling it down , the 500Lbs rear coilovers ride fine , steering is just like stock. I wanted a loud car , but this is insane.. it's louder than a transport and upon deceleration the crackles through the exhaust sound like gunshot.  If anyone decides to do this conversion USE GOOD MUFFLERS>. mine are Flowmaster Delta force muffelrs you can see through.. it sounds mean , and is liveable @ crusing speeds... but open it up and it's beyond words.

I also fabbed up a nice air intake from 3" mandrel bent pipe , using a mig welder , K&N filter and silicone coupler. All I need to do now is fab up a baseplate to connect it to the alternator. I welded it up , ground down the welds , sanded it , painted it with high heat paint and baked it in the oven @ 250 for an hour.. Nice hard shiney finish.

Still need to finish up the interior , address the tuning issues , get a proper alingment and muffle some of the noise and Im set to go!

J.McCreery
86 GT N* , 5spd , spec alum flywheel , spec clutch , commander 950 Nitrous and all the good stuff..now if I could only get it to work right. 

Canadian Tire muflers $28 each.  Although I'm thinking about making a custome one.


sounds like your thottle plate is a little too far open.



sounds like a cable problem, or a fried computer (probably cable).  Now that I scared you it's pobably low voltage form the battery that's causing the ECM to not want to fire up.



not a fan of flowmaster lower end stuff.  High end stuff is too expensive.  There is no reason a muffler should cost more than $50.



nice! I'm trying to figure out a way to get 3.5" intake. 4" is too big and 3.5 is hard to find in something light.

Aaron

.

Alternator?  You mean throttle body?  I think you've got alternators on the brain.   ;D

The Mufflers weren't low end by any means , but I don't think they were intended for such a short exhaust system. Also being all 2.5" mandrel bent there is very little restriction.

As for the computer..I spoke with alan this morning , it's not a cable and it's not a friend computer. here's the response he got from holley


What is happening below I have heard of several times.  It has been
traced, typically to a faulty electrical device, typically the
alternator giving out a lot of EMI.  This causes the RAM in the C950 to
get "scrambled".  The map has to be redownloaded. Unfortunately what
also happens sometimes, is that the password protection gets scrambled
and enabled.  You then can't get into the system.  It won't let you send
or view the data, but it will show "online" on the fuel map, vs offline.

There is a backdoor to disable the password protection.  You go into
"engine parameters", and you "click" a few times with the cursor on the
"box" that surrounds the injector firing type (1 pulse per rev, tbi,
etc).  This disables the password protection.


This is honestly the only issue I am aware of with the system.  As I
said, it is typically from a failing/faulty alternator, or they have the
switched power hooked up to an unclean source.  I just had this happen.
A person had a TON of stuff hooked up to the same switched power point.
Not the right gauge of wire and they had an accumsump hooked up to it as
well which is a large coil.  I had them isolate the switched power with
a relay and they haven't had an issue yet.



I can get you 3.5" U bend Aluminum bend ""U"" shape. The gentleman who is building my headers gave me the 3" U bend. He Builds turbo Civics.  HOw did you build the plate to adapt the intake to the TB now that the  MAF is gone?? or did you cut the MAF?

I didn’t take any photo’s of it because it was so simple.  What I did was make an adapter plate to match the bolt holes and the opening for the MAF sensor out of plastic.  Then glued a 3.5” piece of plastic tubing (about 2” long) to it with ABS glue.  Added a piece of thin weather strip between the throttle body and the adapter plate.  Now it’s just a matter of finding the right tubing for the filter and clamp it on.

I’ll take some photos when I go to get my car.

(http://www.fierodrivers.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=765.0;attach=840)

How thick is that tubing?  All the tubing I found was way too thick.  The thing only needs to hold -1 psig, and I don’t want to add extra weight for nothing.  Looking for somewhere around 20 gauge.

20 gauge?  that's pretty thin.  maybe an HVAC supplier would have ductwork like that?  Strangely enough, you have the same setup I have - PVC pipe  8)

oh - what I did was took a large (6" dia??) pvc cap, and cut a flange out of it to mate to the TB, and drilled a hole in that big enough for some 3" PVC, which I glued to the flange.  The 3" pvc is larger than the TB bore, so I don't think there's anything to gain from going larger than that.

Sent my ECU back to Alan, I tried for 2 hrs to get into it with 0 success. He said no problems that he would take care of it. Chrfab has been great for customer service.

I picked up another surge tank today. The C4 corvette one I have is nice , but a little cramped. I have seen it used where the battery was by a gentleman on Pennocks when he did a 3.5ltr shortstar swap.  I followed Chris moores advice and got one from a grand am. , it's a nice black top unti , measures 4" wide x 11" long. The corvette unit was about 6x12 and concaved on the underside for the fenderwell.


Apperently in the 8 swaps chris Moore has done he has always capped off the front rad permanently (actually had custom rads built) and used a surge tank in the rear. Then the system just purges itself. My next purchase will be a Griffin Aluminum Rad for the car. Still lots more to go  detail wise , hopefully i can make it to carlilse..

This is the right way to do it.  Cap the overflow at the front rad.  But making sure the right points are used for the surge tank is just as important.  I have posted about that on one of the former pages.

Aaron

.

Got my ECU back from alan , it was scambled , he re-programmed it all and sent it back.  Got a new surge tank..

off I go.

That's ridiculous.  Why don't they have internal protection from alternator spikes or whatever?  Sounds like holley dropped the ball, and I'd bet that's what happened to mine.  Another reason for me to consider switching away from holley.

I was in contact with Alan at CHRFAB mid week when I ordered mine and we discussed Slammed's holley 950 because I too did not want to buy some piece of equipment that would have this same problem.  The Holley is much like any other computer, if you don't save your data or back up your data it will be lost. Otherwise your holley reverts back to the stock configuration that can not run a N*. CHRFAB is not about to leak out their N* program to get the holley back up and running, so you have to send it back to them.

Alan told me, to prevent what happend to Slammed's, is to make sure I have a back up program in the lap top. For example: if you made changes to the N* set up in for example, Program 1, save it. If that doesn't work then make some more changes and save as Program 2. Don't keep overwritting the same one. And what you do change and like, be sure to save it to the Holley Commander and not just to the software on the laptop. If you don't reprogram the commander, it will go back to it's stock configuration from Holley and will require reprogramming from CHRFAB.  :D

Does this make sense???  It did when I talked with them on the phone about it. But it's difficult to explain in words than over the phone.   ??? I guess it's all in how you save it or don't save it.

Pete

I am going to start putting miles on the car starting next weekend. I will bring it back to Oakville and drive it daily. Then off to the Dyno and if all goes well I will be headed to Carlilse. Off to the paint shop first thou..

I have allt he faith int he world in Alan @ CHRFAB and Holley. Alan is a good guy and gives me no reason to think the holley is  a bad setup by any means.

PBJ said what I was assuming everyone was doing.

For the record I have over 20 different configurations saved under headings such as date and modification.

I even have data logs of the different configurations so that I can look back and compare.

Aaron

.

Wasn't so much a case of me not being able to upload maps becasue I didn't have the,. I had both aarons maps and alans on file. THe problem lied in that The ECU wasn't linking to the computer becasue of the password protection. While the maps on the laptop zero'd , the ECU itself still quite clearly had data on it as it would prime the pump for 5 seconds , but not start.

NO harm , no foul. Cost me $120 in UPS to get it there and back in a timely fashion , and a lot of frustration ,b ut alan set my mind @ ease.


JM

It might not be a bad idea to use a small criciuit to regulate the power supply.  I'm already working out the details.

Nice detail on the swap.  Looks like you did a quality install.  I'm just starting on mine, nice to see what someone else has done before I start.

 O0

my car is 99.9% complete!! :D

I got back the ECM , installed it and the car fired right up... IT turned out it was the cable all along! We pulled appart the cable and it had a broken wire @ the connector. The car goes in this week for an alignment , I need to readjust the shift cables and it's done mechanically. I installed the new seats ,the interior is all back together , rear swaybar is on.

Oddly enough I couldn't get the car to idle properly with Aarons maps , when I loaded alans base maps the car idled right down. IT does run rich though . I have an appt for the Dyno in 2 weeks.


Finally!

JM

Where are you going to get it Dyno'd? I would like to do mine, one of these days.

DL motorsports in Burlington.

That’ll most likely be IAC position or throttle screw position.  Or it could be the idle setting, my maps tell the engien to idle at 1200 rpm until the motor is warm.

I have a G-Tech meter now so soon I’ll have better tables for performance. (ie. What spark advance to use and what fuel to use)

Got the car aligned yesterday , Drove it all day , used a ton of gas. The car seems to have an oil leak somewhere , and is still hitting 220 on the temp gauge. Im hoping a final purge of the system will fix this. I put in some redline watter wetter as well.

The clutch slave was a bitch to bleed , it would work fine for an hour or so , then air would get in. We finally traced it to a loose connection. We removed the flex line to the slave , wrapped the threads in teflon tape and everything is good.

Put in new speakers too!

I made the trip from Kingston to oakville yesterday without any issues. The car ran alright , sucked a lot of gas and there seems to be a Miss when you push it , either that or it's running super rich. It goes to get Dynoed this friday

Any ideas as to why it would be missing?? Aaron??

If your not using my maps there are a lot of reasons.

I had the same miss for a while.

Check all of the acceleration enrichment maps to make sure none of them are under 100%
AE vs TPS: should peak at 117 to 125% at about 80.
Rate of change of MAP sensor: Should be around 20 to 25 on the left and about 40 on the right.

I'd really have to be looking at the program running before I could give you a good answer.

If you are interested, a friend of mine and I are going to be doing some serious tuning soon (I have a G-Meter now).  Perhaps we could meet up somewhere. You still have my number?

Aaron

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Aaron, I have a new one for ya!   :D

Ever since it started getting warmer, it's been idling poorly, revving up and down, and nearly stalling sometimes.  My fuel map is flat in the idle area, as is the spark map.  I thought it might be due to running rich, but it does the same thing even when I'm in closed loop.

Any ideas as to what's causing it? 

Also, with gas prices as they are, can I get away running 15.2:1 at idle without burning up?  16:1?  I know some cars are there already, I just don't know if the northstar is ok there.

It’s got to be IAC and throttle plate adjustment.  Mine will still hunt from time to time, I’m trying to figure out exactly what it’s looking for, but it really hasn’t been much of a concern of mine as of late because I’m focusing all my attention on waiting for it to stop raining and tuning the power band. But when I do get back to it I’ll post my findings.

What Allen (CHRFab) does is run the IAC a lot more open than I do and compensates by closing the throttle plate a bit.  I may try something similar later to see if it gets a smoother idle.  I just don’t see the point of eliminating the IAC travel unless it’s not linear (I don’t know the answer to this question either yet).

As for running at 16:1, it’s up to you.  I would watch the engine temp very carefully, if it starts to climb too much get some more fuel in there.  With the stock radiator I have found that the motor will idle too hot if I run the mixture too lean.

Aaron

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Have you tried playing with the "PID" mentioned in the manual?  Mine seems to be locked out via the software, but I can adjust it by opening the .950 file manually in notepad. 

It seems as though that may be where to head next, since you didn't quite have the answer I was looking for  :P

I didn't know that you could open the file in notepad.

Theres a bunch of stuff I want to change that has been locked out.

Thanks for the tip.

Aaron

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No problem.  In my map, the derivative is 20, Prop. is 10, integral 32.  I just scroll down until I find those consecutive numbers...  If you want an actual line number, lmk, and I can look it up.  According to the manual, the derivative is what keeps the engine from "overshooting" the desired idle, which I think is what needs to be changed.  Even in their examples, that number is typically 64-ish. 

I think what happens is something causes the engine to dip a little bit, so the IAC opens a lot, and the idle shoots to 1000, then the IAC closes almost completely, and nearly stalls the engine.  And then it oscillates.  Since this is my daily driver, I need to get this sorted out ASAP.  I can't have it stalling (although it hasnt yet...)

Just tried 64 for derivative...  oddly, it was difficult to start (what??), and seemed to make the problem worse.  I also noticed that it wasn't a problem with the IAC per se.  It was fluctuating wildly with the IAC at 107!!  Makes me wonder if I have mechanical problems.

Funny you mention stuff has been blocked out. When I uploaded you maps I noticed I have quite a few more options than you do for some reason.

I reloaded your maps last night and opened up the throttle plate ,t he car runs a lot better ,should be a good baseline for the Dyno tomorrow (WooHooo) Still has a slight miss @ WOT , but throttle response and overall power in greatly improved. On my testdrive I tried to get a new Mustang GT to play with me , but he didn't want too  >:(  he's lucky too.

Slammed,

You should copy/paste the .950 file here so myself and others can find out what we're missing  O0

I will post em up tomorrow. No differences in fuel or spark maps , but everything else seems to have added cells with stuff I didn't touch. Im sure we all have the same capability, I seem to remember there is an "advanced" tab I clicked on

The Dyno will tell for sure , I will have Numbers posted Tomorrow night with Aarons maps and whatever else the do to tune it up. Probably won't be til later @ night I have booked 2 hours to have it done right.

Then on goes the Nitrous Nozzle kit for even more fun :)

Ha!  You're right!  Under about:version, you click the advanced tab, and it gives you additional features under idle air and idle spark. 

Thanks!

Who do you trust more..

The good Folks @ autometer , or the GM installed factory sensor

Autometer says she is running at 215-220

laptop through the commander software says 195

Damm autometer got me all worried.

If you can borrow/rent/steal an ifrared scanner, I wonder if there'd be any value in scanning the temp of the outgoing coolant hose?   :-\

I tapped the Coolant sensor for the gauge into the heater core line return I made off the engine. I used Copper pipee and a few 90's to make it , soldered it up and painted it black.. not glamourous , but it works.. I think the copper is really conducting the heat and it's picking up heat off the motor. I trust the computer far more than a gauge.

7 hours til Dyno Time!

Yesssssssss!    8)

Well I think I figured out my problem.  On decel, at high vacuum and low rpms, it was leaning out, causing the rpms to go crazy.  Hopefully this fixes it, I'm getting tired of tuning.   :-\

finally got a chance to take a test drive.  Drives like ass.  I hate this damn car.  Anybody want a northstar fiero?  anyone?   :-[

It was making a "whirring" noise too.  Probably because it's ready to spin a bearing. 

I'm going to give it a once-over tomorrow.  Maybe the intake gasket is leaking or something.  I dont know.  I pray it's something simple, because this car is taxing me to death.  (Why can't I just DRIVE YOU!!!) 

Finally weighed the car:

2760 lb without driver.  It’s about what I expected.

Now I have to put the car on a 350 lb diet.

Aaron

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My 88 3.8 weighed in at 2880 empty fuel, so is 110 lbs heavier. Must be that auto tranny that acounts for the weight change.

My car ate it's 255GPH Walbro Fuel pump. Had it flatbedded back to the dealership where I work and another pump is on it's way. I pulled the intake as well since the starter is starting to be tempermental , so I will have it rebuilt as well , throw my z06 injectors in and head back to the dyno. I think a lot of my fuel problems have been due to a faulty pump all along. I picked up a B&M pressure gauge for the rail and an Earls hi flow filter..Hopefully this recify's my issues...

It's an on-going battle!

I hear ya!

Get an acdelco pump!  You won't be sorry! 

I hate to admit this.. I think I killed the pump. In my eager state to ge the car running I slapped a fuel filter on it without reading what was on the side. I looked at the flow arrow and away I went. Upon closer inspection the filter has molded into it ""TO CARB"" IE it's deisgned for a Carb application..which flows the bit 6psi.. not the 43 or so Im tring to jam through it.. I think the puimp just overheated due to the restriction of the filter. The Pump will support 750hp N/A Motors or 450 Forced induction ponies.. it was basically working against itself.

Lesson learned.  I will pull the tank and replace the pump thursday afternoon. This will probalby make a big difference @ the DynO!

what?
is there a 255gph mfg by delco?
if there is what's the part number?

Delco doesn't have a 255GPH Pump that I know of.  The walbro 255gph pump is $50 more than a 89 turbo Ta pump and the same price as a 96 Corvette pump , neither of which flow the same Numbers... it's a no brainer. I got mine from JRP in oakville.

The injectors are being cleaned as we speak. Im going to get a good tune on      them , then maybe swap to the z06 injectors I have and see if I can't find a few more ponies. Due to my freeflowing (almost too good) exhaust my car is really drinking back the fuel, thank god for wideband tuning.  Im not going into my Dyno numbers yet , but I am putting down more torque than any 5spd N* car I have seen Dyno'd. Most Guys are in the 245-250 range and with a shitty tune I am above that considerably.

Then comes the Nitrous.... 400 @ the wheels is the goal!

You mean LPH?

http://www.nolimitmotorsport.com/walbro/

255gph would be like a fountain pump...

I don't remember what the corvette ac delco's are, but they're probably not that high.  I think it's like 150l/hr, which is good for 400hp.  They're made to last for the life of the car though, which is good because changing FPs sucks.

No , it's 255GPH pump as listed by Walbro on their site and used by many!

Well , it's not the pump. I pulled the tank tonight , tested the pump it works fine. Tested both right @ the pump and at the harness connector , both times pump worked fine. The ECM when connected to the laptop says the pump is working fine.

Driving @ 70mph on QEW the car just died... and hasn't lived since.

You have a part number?  Because a 255gph pump would support 2500hp+

I did a search on google for "walbro fuel pump 255", and everywhere it's listed it shows lph.

Jon meant LPH.

he is a dumbass like that    O0

Im putting down at least 2000hp @ the wheels.

I have run into a Dead fuel pump issue that I am at a total loss to figure out and even Alan Johnson is stumped.

The 4 wires into the relay , 2 red , 1 black , one green and black. one of the reds is a constant 12V which will read 12V's with the key on or off. The other is the signal for the fuel pump (green and black , the ground and a redwire which I am not sure of.

Long story short , the car died and hasn't come to life in 2 weeks.  Even if I jumper the fuel pump and put fuel @ the rail , the injectors won't fire and I get nothing

Im at a total loss... anyone else experieced this? I have replaced the relay , I checked to see if there was voltage out of the green and black wire that goes into the relay socket. It does everythingit should. When you turn the key and the pump primes for 4.9 sec it shows voltage , then stops , once you start cranking it the voltage comes on again just like it should. The ECM says the fuel pump is on.

The kicker... When I put the volt meter to the wire (green and black) that comes out of the harness there is no voltage under any circumstance

I don't get it.

JM

If the ECU says the fuel pump is on and there is no voltage out of pin A1, then the problem is inside the ECU.  If there is power on Pin A1 then it has to be the wiring, relay or pump.

Pull the relay and test it.  Put power to pin 85 and ground pin 86, then listen for a click.  If there is no click the relay is no good.  If there is a click make sure the contact is good by checking the resistance and or current flow though pins 30 and 87 while there is power through pin 85 and 86.  If that’s good your relay is good.

No power on Green and Black...that is a problem.  The red wire is for power to the relay (pin 87) and output from the relay (Pin 30) to the O2 sensor and the injectors (coupled with green and black).  Check for a loose connection on that wire to the injectors.  Perhaps it’s that simple, but I wouldn’t count on it.  Note: the green and black wire is the power for the fuel pump from the relay output pin 30.  If there is no power coming out of Pin 30 (with ignition on) then you have no pump or injectors.


What else...

Check the flow rate of the fuel pump when it primes.  It might be possible that you mixed up the lines on the fuel tank for the return and the evap when you hooked it up.  If you did there would be a lot of flow restriction which might cause a problem.


Aaron

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One more thing.  You will only have power out of pin 30 while the fuel pump is priming or the motor is running.  If you want more time to check the circuit, change the length of time the fuel pump primes for (don't forget to change it back).

Aaron

.

I checked the voltage on Pin A1...and thank god it has voltage during prime of 12V+ and during cranking. So I can rule out the ECU.

The fuel pump is so loud you couldn't mistake the sound it makes from priming. Also keep in mind that the car died @ 70mph..so it wasn't like a 1st time run , I have put about 1000kms on it.


The relay clicks for the 4.9 seconds when the car is in the on position ,and again when cranking.

Pin 30 has power as it should. under cranking and under prime.

OK, in summary, what's it doing?

Jumper the fuel pump to +12, and it runs?
But doesn't prime or run during cranking?
But you do have the correct signals to the relay?

Is that the jist of it?

Not running @ all!!!

Cranking , Fuel pump not getting signal , if I jumper the fuel pump and prime the system it won't wire becasue the injectors aren't getting any signal.

The following things.

Red wire into relay shows constant 12V
Other red wire shows power when in ""On" position
Green and black into relay shows 12V when priming (you hear relay click) and when cranking.
Ground is grounding

The green wire with the black strip out of the harness into the C203's tan and white wire (Fuel pump positive) is not doing SHIT!!

ARRghhh


Friend of mine who is an electrical engineer is headed here right now from kingston.

Sounds like a wiring / grounding issue.  I would like to know what the findings are.

The injectors get their power form the fuel pump relay but the switchings is from the ECU.

What happens if you jumper the relay to the "closed" position?  Fuel pump and injectors should then have power.....

hi again everyone
just wandering,
does anybody have interesting numbers from the dyno/g tech's or even track results?
i'm dooing an automatic (4t65ehd) combined with a special torque witch should have around 5% loss and gonna be paddle shift and will have 3.69 final ratio.

marc the stroker

Depends what you are looking for?  I do have some G-Tech readings, but your question is vague.

Aaron

.

i saw someone in the past getting 1.17 g's lateral with about the same suspension kit that i have,witch is the one sold by fiero store with koni strut's and eiback springs and sway bar's but what i was referring to is 1/4 mile times and speed's.
it would be nice if someone started a list of the fastest times and related speed's and video attachements while he is at it.
just like the one on mr2's forum
stroker

That 1.17G's BS was posted by Cali kid on Pennocks poop palace. A gtec Does measure G's , but they are not constant G's. The Gtec Will spike and show a maximum G load achieved by the car , but that doesn't mean the car can sustain it. The magazines all use a 300ft circle and drive around it , increasing speed until they loose traction. I spiked a Gtec @ 2.0G's in My Mini cooper with Hooiser autocross tires.. In a Circle the best I could sustain was 1.02. Unless you do some serious work you won't break 1 G with a street driven Fiero. My car with Koni's , Coilovers , 1.25" rear bar and a 1" front bar could sustain .95 on a Vericom (Really expensive more accurate Gtec)

.95 is still better than the vast majority out there but over 1 G would be hard. As for the Gtec's accuracy..use it for 1/4 mile and 0 to 60.. it's somewhat accurate for that.

Stroker;

I totaly agree about the lateral G's.  The G tech isn’t so good with the lateral G’s because it doesn’t have a pitch correction for how much your car will roll in a corner.  It is good for tuning your car to achieve maximum G’s in the corner, but you won’t know what the lateral G’s really are until you drive it on a skid pad.  A 200’ skid pad can be made in a parking lot.  Basically time yourself around the circle and calculate what the G force must be to maintain that circle and time.

That being said the forward G’s are much more accurate since the new G-meters have a correction factor that can be calibrated against real runs to hone in how much your car will actually pitch during take-off (so many degrees per G sort of thing).

With nice ZR racing tires (properly matched for your cars weight distribution, ie. 245's in the rear) and a suspension kit on your car you should expect to reach somewhere just over 1 G in the corners (like 1.05 to 1.1 G’s) but don’t expect to reach anything over .8 G’s with street tires.  Please also note that tuning suspension geomatry is a topic way to involved to get into in this post.  Let's just say there are a lot more things involved than just installing a kit and going.


Aaron

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EDIT-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm editing this post because after reading this post again, and after further consideration, I really don't think it's likely that a street legal fiero is going to reach 1 g let alone 1.1 g's.  I think .95 is a much more likely number.

So , hows everyones project going? I drove mine home from oakville to kingston without fault. Took it to a 2 day long car show in kingston and Won my class and Peoples choice for the whole show.

Going to pull it out this winter and swap the heads and cams.

Also ordered a Wideband O2 meter with data logging

Nice job...

...so I take it the cams and such aren't for sale anymore?  That's okay because I'm not going to have the money for a while anyway.

Congrats again.

As far as the project…I have the idle working nicely, but I find that after a long run (say 30 min or so) the intake air temperature is getting a bit higher than I’d like it to and it’s causing the motor to run a little rich momentarily when I let off the gas.  So two things next on the list is, change the radiator for a Nova rad, and insulate my cold air intake.  The car doesn’t run hot but it is running a little hotter than I’d like it to by about 10 to 15 °F.


Aaron

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The Nova rad is a drop-in replacement?

no, it requires new brackets because it's a few inches taller.  No big deal really.  I'm going to try and find a copper one with a single wide core.

You can order aluminum 4 core rads from Jegs or Summit for under $200... Thats on my list...

Ditto.  I bet the stock v6 radiator would work if it were brand new, but on a nearly 20 year old radiator, I think mine's a bit overloaded.

I've been watching this thread for a wile now and picked up several good tips for my own swap in progress, so I figure it's time for some pay back.
I had been having nightmares trying to figure out why I couldn't get a decent idle from my stock 98 L-37 with 950pro ecu. my idle problem was very erratic and would sometimes sneek up to near 2500 for no apparant reason, then snap back to near normal.  I knew I didn't have an air leak as I could seat the iac and unplug it and get the motor to chug along at ~500 rpm. I tested and retested for shorts and poor connections to no avail. After 2 weeks of frustration I finally happened to check the voltage of the switched wire to the ecu from the ign switch and noticed a voltage loss of about 1/2 volt from actual batt voltage. it traced back to the ign switch itself. I just put in a new one and now have a good solid idle at 1200.

ymmv,
Pbody

Slammed Fiero

 I was going over the thread again: it's been about 6 months since I last checked in. Did you ever make it to the dyno. I didn't seem to find
 that post and i was all ears ( all eyes in this case).

Bootstrap86

Just took a week off and worked on the car.. Took the engine out , redid some engine mounts, powdercoated the valve covers wrinkle red (like a ferrari) and painted the engine cover Gloss black. Also added Supertrapps with 2 Bolt Flanges for easy removal. They made a huge difference and really quieted the car down.... but when I want to be annoying and loud the flanges come off with 2 bolts and Im running pretty much open exhaust.

Cradle was all repainted , tranny was repainted , changed the oil , just little things really.. I had the motor out in 3 hours.. Friend of mine took off the week as well to work on the car...

Got the motor out Monday and it was back in thursday night and all buttoned up by Friday , coolant purged...

a few little things left to do , bleed the slave cylinder , Tidy a few things... other than that she's done... Just waiting for my Wideband  02 from Innovte (LM1) and off we go... Tuned to perfection.

i was told the 4.7l would drop right in and my 4 speed trans would bolt right on and there was no real fabrication needed

???

Depends on who you are.   I don't think it's that big a deal, but some aren't qualified to finish.

Aaron

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Aaron, have you put those cams in yet?

No, but I did go pick them up this weekend past >:D

Probably not going in untill the fall.
Re-do coolant surge tank.
brakes.
not sure what else.

Aaron

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