Ottawa Fiero Club Forum

I'm just welding up the fixture now to make engine cradles.  I'm making one for Tibs out of aluminum with new control arms (bumpsteer delete).

After that I'm working on the F23 stuff.  Transmission cable bracket, shifter extension bracket, and trans mounts.  So far I only have plans for brackets to fit the 2000-2002 F23 with metric bellhousing.  But as I do custom I can accommodate any configuration.

There may be a slight delay as I have to make the brake press first since I can't find a heavy gauge used one.

Aaron

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I have found two different styles of mounting points on the F23s so far and both were the style with our bell housings so may want to check into that a bit.
The solution so far has been for the use of a longer shift cable and a 5 speed Getrag select cable and have the shift cable wrap around very close to the strut tower to get the needed angle for the factory shifter mechanism.
A set up that allows for the cables to both approach the tranny together over the top would be a much better set up and could then use the stock fiero cables.
I have some photos of how I did my last set of mounts if they will help give you some ideas on mounting and will see if I can get a photo of the other F23 mounting points I found on one at the wreckers.
The one I have prepped for my car is using a 2002 cavalier bell housing and an 09 tranny with the 405 gear set that should work pretty well, that is if I can get any traction.
Either way I do like the way the F23 works up against a healthy 3800SC compared to the Fiero getrag. Dan

I wonder if one is chevy and the other pontiac?  I have two bellhousings but I didn't really check the second one that close.  I'll do that, being one is sunfire and the other cav.

I'm doing some things different that anything else I've seen so far.  I will be using stock cables.

Thanks Dan

Aaron

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You are right one was a sunfire the other a cavalier.
One other thing I noticed is the Fiero 5 speed shifter is able to have enough movement of the select cable but it is tight for either 1st or reverse. I was thinking making the arm in the shifter for the select a little longer to give more cable movement making it a lot easier to make up the brackets and arms at the tranny end.
I have had quite a few people so far asking about doing an f23 swap in their Fieros so there is definitely a demand for it an for good mounts and shifter brackets.
For the speedo you just need to use the same speed sensor buffer circuit used in 3800/4T65E swaps to make the signal compatible with the Fiero speedometer due to its 24000PPM signal but not sure what would be the best route for F23 swaps using the stock Fiero engines. Dan

Hi guys,

First: Bump!  ;)

Second: Updates?  :)

Third: I will be looking into the F23 swap as soon as I'm back from the 30th. That means reading lots of documentation, gathering parts and preparing my swap. I will be switching from an TH125C Automatic mated to a stock 2.8L, to an F23 Manual using the same stock 2.8L.

I'm looking for some good mounts and shifter brackets. I got a set from FOY (FriendOfYours) on Pennock, though I am worried about the quality of the welds and the overall design.

Dan: I know you were making some, but I also saw on Pennock that you had a waiting list and that as soon as you are done you would re-evaluate if you stay in business.

Aaron: I don't know where you're at in this project. I don't know if you have a design in mind or if you started something. Do you have any updates?

I had my fair share of trouble with my car, dropped the craddle too many times for my liking. This is why I would like a good design that will keep my transmission stable and good shifter brackets that will ensure smooth and easy shifts in each gear. I don't want to break my head to figure my own bracket design since this will take me lots of time. Now I don't know who will be able to provide that considering there are no more seller and no more design on sale at this moment.

Please let me know where you guys are up to. :)
Fred

I just thought I'd point something out for those that are planning to tackle this before I get my shit together.  Have a look at the following two photographs:

This is the Getrag 282 transmission
(http://i42.tinypic.com/of546a.jpg)


This is the metric F23 transmission out a 2002 sunfire
(http://i43.tinypic.com/rhmjih.jpg)

Have a close look at the shaft seal on both transmissions.  Notice that the F23 transmission has an offset while the 282 is flush with the bell-housing mounting surface.  The F23 differential is pushed 10.5 mm closer to the right side (passenger side).  I haven't confirmed that the width of the differential is identical but I heard that it was (I'll confirm later).

What this means is that you have two choices.  One is that you center the differential by moving your motor over 10.5 mm towards the <edit> "left (drivers side)" and the other is that you allow the transmission to be off center by 10.5 mm.  The latter choice is not the end of the world, I ran my Northstar that way for 15'000 km without issue.  It's not ideal though.

Obviously this is one of the problems that people have been having getting their custom transmission mounts to work with their existing motor mounts.  Food for thought.  Keep it in mind.

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Also the F23 has the axles coming out of the tranny approximately one inch closer to the engine block same as the F40 so the engine needs to be moved one inch closer to the trunk to keep the axles lined up straight with the hubs. Dan

Good point Dan.  This is where it gets complicated for some motor swaps.  Me for example: I simply don't have the room to move the motor back.  I could tilt the motor, but I don't think that's the rout I'm going to go.  So I will have a little extra axle miss-alignment, plus a bit more on top of that because I lowered my stance.  Fortunately this is a much more forgiving direction to miss-align an axle.  For better ware characteristics a universal joint or CV joint needs miss-alignment on the shaft so that the bearings move enough for proper lubrication.  There is a lot of debate as to what the best angel is but let's say that between 5 to 7 degrees is ideal.


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By keeping in mind I'm using a stock V6 Engine:

By moving the whole drive-train 10.5mm to the left and moving it approximately 25.4mm forward, would that cause other problems around the engine bay? (ie. exhaust alignment, manifold too close to the firewall...) If so, would it be acceptable only to move it left and neglect the "forward" movement? Or is it a distance too important to be neglected?

Basically, I need to relocate the Axle Shaft seal at the same location as the getrag one. Is that right?

At this point I'm not afraid making my own mounts, I just want to know all the principles and theory on how it can affect parts longevity and performance to make it the best setup possible for me. It's something that is completely new to me therefore I'm asking many questions about it.

As I understand now, I need to move the whole drive-train in both the "x" and "y" plane, but is there any other variable/calculation that I might be missing?

Thanks a lot for the help guys!

On the 88 cradle it is very easy to move the drive train an inch closer to the trunk wall but on an 84 to 87 the cradle gets in the way on the driver's side where it bends in on top for the rear inner tie rod mounting point so you can't really move the drive train rear ward very far with out either hitting or getting very close to the tranny hitting the cradle at this point so on an 84 to 87 I would focus more on keeping the axles even lengths side to side then moving the drive train back. Dan

The only direction I think you should consider at all is the left right alignment.  Keeping the motor forward will be better for weight distribution and really won't do anything to hurt the CV angle.  It's such a minor alteration to the angel on the CV joint and you want some angle anyway to help with lubrication and cooling.

Some modification might be required to the exhaust but not much.  You could probably get away without any at all.  Unless you are using a swapped motor in which case the whole thing is custom anyway.

I just noticed that in my post above with the photos that I mentioned to move the motor toward the right.  That is the wrong direction.  You have to move the motor toward the left (drivers side).  I guess that's what happens when you don't get any sleep.  I'll make the correction in the post above to read correctly.

Aaron

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Oh so moving it forward is only because of weight distribution? I thought it was initially for clearance purposes.

For the actual mounts, what are the advantages/disadvantage of using rubber or even poly mounts? I've seen people deleting those rubber/poly so that the mount bolts right on the craddle. From my point of view, it seams like by bolting it straight up there will be lots more vibrations but a much stiffer drivetrain. Then I guess my question is, is it worth it and does it really make such a difference?

Thank you,
Fred

I still prefer rubber mounts on engine and tranny mounts, add in a good dog bone and you are ok. There is some engine movement but nothing harsh or damaging and the vibrations stay away from the inside of the car.
Poly dog bone is not bad just a little vibration and poly mounts will be even more but soilid mounting will shake the crap out of you.
Mount brackets for the F23 are very easy to make right on the tranny sitting on the cradle to make them straight. I use 1/4 steel for all my mounts and brackets. Dan

Dido on the rubber.  If you want poly suspension or even heim...giver.  Road harshness you can dampen with the air in your tires (as in run lower tire pressure).  But engine specific vibration you want to dampen with rubber.  If you want a stiff but dampened motor you could double the size of each rubber mount or number of mounts so that the energy transfers as fast as you want it to.  There just no reason to have engine harshness.  Rubber does a good job to dampen the specific natural frequency the engine produces, specifically 1000 to 6000 Hz.  Personally I like using control arm bushings as engine and tranny mounts.  Allow vibration movements easily but are fully restrained and don't allow large movements.  They can be found cheap and can be used (the same bushing) everywhere.

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An other question. When you take the measurements (The one that decide to move everything for 10.5mm), did you used the distance between the face of the axles seals and the face where the engine and transmission are meeting?

Thanks again for your patience, both of you.  ;)
Fred

Yes.  Basically one is on the same plane and the other is offset.

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I would not stress too much it is easy to modify your stock fiero engine mount to move the engine I would say half the difference in the distances then make up a set of tranny mount brackets with the engine and tranny sitting in place and that is it for mounting. There is a certain amount of play in axle shafts to allow for slight differences in mounting points on swaps.
To date I have done half a dozen of these and they are pretty easy to do just use 1/4 inch steel for all brackets and weld them nice and strong.
Only problem I see with the F23 mated to a stock Fiero engine is the F23 has a 24,000 PPM VSS out put and the Fiero tranny a 4,000 PPM so the speedo is not going to be happy as well as the signal going from the speedo to the factory ECM so some kind of speedo buffer will be needed. Dan

Hi Guys,

     Aaroon, I sent you a text message for a quick reply but i don't know if you have the same phone number. I had a question that I'm sure either you or Dan could answer.

     I don't remember what kind of clutch I need to use for the F23 swap. There are a lot of confusion on the forums. I wish to go with the Spec Stage 3+ (From what I heard, it is more streetable than the Stage 3) From what I remember, the one to use was the stock 2.8L 5spd clutch. (http://www.specclutch.com/cars/Pontiac/Fiero/1987/Single (http://www.specclutch.com/cars/Pontiac/Fiero/1987/Single))

     Now the question that I have, do I need the "Additional Clamp Load Upgrade" that I'm guessing would be the "Super Clamp" Pressure Plate that can be seen here: http://www.specclutch.com/products (http://www.specclutch.com/products). From what I saw, The aluminum pressure plate doesnt clear the differential "Hump" inside the transmission's bellhousing but the "Super clamp" does due to its different shape.

Thanks again for the support! :)
Fred

Fred;

I already sent you a text reply but I thought I'd post here to also close up the question on this forum.  I haven't installed my clutch yet so I can't confirm the answer but I can post what I have found with my research.

The link you posted to Spec shows all photos with the "super clamp" so it's hard to see that the regular clutch housing has a taller profile, but from what I have seen others post the regular clutch housing will not clear all of the F23 bellhousing.  That's why everyone is using the high pressure plate clutch version.

You can use from my understanding the (5 speed) flywheel from your existing motor, but keep in mind that if you have an unbalanced motor and you swap in a different motor (balanced), you will need a new balanced flywheel to go with it.

Also to prevent the Hydraulic Throw out Bearing from overextending you will need a 1/4" spacer (spec can provide that for you as they have identified this problem and make the spacers).

If you have any further questions it's better to call the Spec tech support.  They are very helpful when it comes to pointing you in the right directions, because they have already gone though this conversation with multiple Fiero owners.  And they literally eat and breath clutches.

Sometime I'm sure I will have mine in and will then be better able to answer your further questions.

Cheers,

Aaron

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The SPEC 3 clutch with the saw tooth design on it does not clear where the other style one they sell with just rivets on top has cleared so far in six F23 swaps some were stage 3 and some 3+ but all did not have that saw tooth design which you will understand when you look at the clutch.

Dan,

Thank you for clearing things up. It's good to hear from someone who already did the swap. The confusion about clutches in this swap is extremely high. I also talked to Aaron as well as reading old PMs you sent me, Every info that I have regarding the clutches are the fallowing: (I've also found pictures)

Spec Stage 3 or Stage 3+ clutch for a Pontiac Fiero 2.8L 5spd application. It is important that the pressure plate cover has a round shape, not a spiral star (Or saw tooth as Dan described).

     The first 4 pictures are from the spiral star design and is known to causes clearance issues. The bellhousing had to be grooved and even then it still caused interference.
     The 5th and last picture is the correct one to buy.

I'm in discussion with Spec to order and make sure it's the correct design for my application.

Thanks again guys! :)
Fred

(Couldn't fit all picture in the same post, here is the 5th and last picture)

Reviving an old thread. I have been reading a lot about the F23 swap for my 3800. Not sure if I should just keep the 4spd or go with the F23. It would be nice to have a extra gear while on the highway. But my 4spd only has 120k on it. Got to make up my mind before I order my clutch. Did you guys find it was worth the extra $$$.

You can also consider the Getrag 282 from the V6 5 speed cars.  I used a later model from a citation (stronger diff) and used one of Rodney Dickman's FWD conversion kits.  But then you would also need a digital conversion circuit for the speedo.  It's still a good transmission.

The only reason I decided to upgrade was for the additional strength in the 3 shaft design (F23).

Worth the extra dollars is entirely subjective.  I never broke my existing transmission, but I was also softer on it.  I only did a few dozen clutch dumps from stop, and I would only dump from 2K.  After that it's hammer down though.

So if you never brake it I guess it's not worth it.  If your going to brake it, it's probably worth the buffer.  As for gas money that's a different argument.  But still then the 282 will do better for you (5th gear rpm wise).

Harder and harder to find the 282 these days.  That's another consideration.

What ever is going to get you to drive your car the most.  I guess that the ultimate answer.  I've been re-building my car for years and years now.  So one could argue that I made the wrong choice!  Don't take on more that you can handle in a timely manor.

Aaron

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How did you find the gear ratios? This car won't be a daily driver, mainly for cruising on the weekends and autocross. Once I get into autocross it could lead to lapping (another reason for a 5th gear) I don't think I would go for the 282 if I were to switch.

I believe I got the gear info from here:
http://www.fastfieros.com/NEW_manual_transmission_ratios.htm

After some research it seems most people favor the economy gearing of the cobalt(FY1) tranny. I'm looking into that now. Looks like you need to get the 2000-2002 Cav tranny and swap that bell housing onto the cobalt one. Does not look that difficult. Found some good info here http://ncfiero.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=16

There is more than one way to skin a cat!  That transmission is harder to find.  People like the idea because they don't look at the practical application.  As if they would really notice the gas savings after they drive the crap out of their car????

If you really want higher gearing you could do the same sort of thing I did.  I'm using larger diameter wheels.  That will do the same thing as a taller final drive.  Plus the transmission when I bust it will be much cheaper and easier to find.

Just say'in.

How do you plan to drive?

Aaron

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Yeah  I hear you but apparently the internals are better as well. Plus I have to buy another tranny anyways for the bell housing so I would have a spare. But I know what you are saying.

Will I need a 5 spd shifter assembly  or will the 4spd one work.

I don't think anyone has a kit that will work out of the box.  So since you will have to make adjustments to link lengths and stuff I don't see why you can't get it to work.  It's just through length and cable lengths and method of connection.

Good luck.

Post pics if you can.

Aaron

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The tranny I originally built up for my 88 3800SC formula was a 2010 FY1 with a 2002 Sunfire bell housing was a lot of work changing every thing over and I did have a tranny mechanic double check my work before putting into the car. The gears were a nice match for the engine I was using and top end was pretty decent especially when pulling 7000 rpm shifts in each gear but unfortunately the tranny did not survive my abuse eventually blowing the seals out on a high speed run and loosing a lot of fluid all over the engine bay and road and damaging the tranny by the time I got it stopped. The one I replaced it with just to get back on the road when I changed over to my series III 3800SC is also nice but the stock 2002 F23 gear ratio is not the best. In first gear any boost at all and i hit the rev limiter and top end is no longer as nice but mind you it will most likely help keep me out of trouble having the lowered top end.
Both versions are nice and a lot smoother shifting then any 282 I have ever dealt with but sticking with the stock F23 from 2000 to 2002 is a lot easier come build time and as mentioned the FY1 trannies are not so easy to find and usually twice the cost or more then the version that we can use from the 2000 to 2002 Sunfire and cavaliers

Ive been looking into the swap also. I wouldn't mind hearing more about the gearing in the 2000 - 2002. Ive heard 1st is too low for higher power. Do you feel your having to shift too early? Would that mean first is better suited for taxiing along in a parking lot or incline(or not so abusive driving ;D)? How was the rpm on the highway?
 Sorry to hear your loss the fy1. Some make it sound so easy to swap the housings off. Nice to hear some experience with the switch and amount of effort.  O0

Cool thanks Dan for your input.

Any time you have a high torque motor you are into bypassing gears.  If I was just daily driving my car I would shift from 1st to 3rd to 5th.  Just skip 2nd and 4th.  Unless your getting into it (then you use all the gears).  This is with the 282, and my Northstar.  I don't expect anything different from any other high power motor.  You just don't need all the gears unless your getting into the peddle harder.  For example; as long as my car was up to 40 kph I could just put it into 5th and drive like it was an automatic.

Even the Corvette has a lock out on 2nd (and maybe 3rd.. can't remember?).  So unless you accelerate hard enough it won't even let you shift into second.  They know it useless at that point..   and it saves gas.

This is normal for any high torque motors.

There are so many reasons that you use different gear ratios it's not possible to get into what you would want in a transmission without getting into specifics of how you are going to drive the car,  where you are going to drive the car, what your driving habits are, etc, etc...  You could find out after careful calculation that, what you really want is closer gears.  All depends...

I dont have that, any other Fords share the same rear IFS configuration?  Focus, fiesta etc?