Ottawa Fiero Club Forum

As some of you may have noticed, I have a new sig with a suspiciously clean-looking cradle cradle featured in it at the moment.  Before you ask, no, I'm not suddenly developing a taste for abstract automotive art...

The truth is that I am finally doing something about that tired ol' 2.8 of mine.

Given that I have to balance the project with something of equal priority and money-sucking ability, this is going to take a while.  Regardless, I'm officially under way.   O0

First things first, was to prep a cradle.

Some fun with a local car wash's pressure washer, about 10 hours of sand blasting, some fresh paint, and a set of poly mounts resulted in a dirty, rusty old cradle becoming this:

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Perhaps worthy of note, is that running a 5 gallon media blaster from an 8 gallon compressor requires patience.  For every 15-20 seconds of blasting, I had to wait an equal length of time for the compressor to catch up.   ;D

Looks real nice and clean, by the look of the mounts I take it this is going to be a standard tranny 3800SC swap. Hopefully a nice series II. Dan

Yep.  The only thing I own which could be considered to have an automatic transmission (assuming that a CVT counts), is my snowmobile.  I'd like to keep it that way.  :)


Yessir, and a non-stock one at that.  More on that at a later date...  I have a target output in mind, but until I spend some time crunching flow numbers, cam profiles, and a few other things I don't yet know if it's a realistic goal.



Currently on the to-do list, is the transaxle.

I'll be using the 3.65 Muncie, with a fresh set of bearings & seals.  As per this thread (http://www.fierodrivers.com/forum/index.php?topic=2488.0), I'm having the differential spider & side gears cryo-treated before installing a Phantom Grip unit.

The transaxle is currently in pieces on my work bench, while the diff. gears are presently in Calgary awaiting treatment.  I managed to find the shim selector tool set required for setting new bearings properly on eBay, and am awaiting its arrival.

If you are planning on using the WCF front mount I would reccomend also using the A/C bracket mount that I use to reinforce it if not there is way too much movement of the engine under load.
 There are pictures of it in the link below. Dan

Definitely a consideration, providing that I can find an alternate location for the a/c compressor.

After what I just invested in a new condenser, I'll be damned if I render the a/c non-functional after a simple little engine swap.   ;D

The A/C compressor can still be mounted at that location just trim the mount a bit more and bolt the A/C bracket to it, have done this before and it works just fine. I have also made up an easy to copy bracket for mounting the alt low on the trunk side that works with the newer style alternators or the older style. Keep an eye on the photos I keep adding to the site in the link below. If there is any thing else ask and if I have done it I will put up some photos, gotta love digital cameras. If I am being pushy and you want to do this by your self please accept my appologies. Dan

Ahhh, gotcha.  I couldn't tell from the photos whether there is still room for the compressor in there or not.  :)

I'm definitely interested in that type of alternator set-up as well.

...and no, you're not being pushy.  I'm always open for input & criticism.

Looks great Don.   O0

However please amend your title to read either 'second' slowest or 'slowest S2'

I believe I may have several years head start on the slowest claim.....   :-[

Gotta admit the buzz has a valid point there Don but then again I am not the fastest either at this whole engine swap thing.

I can fix that, trust me.   ;D

After the transmission and a few other pieces have been cleaned up and assembled in to something which I can easily shove about on a dolly, the project goes on hold for at least a year or two.

Somewhere under a pile of flotsam on one side of the garage, lies a neglected artifact from my pre-Fiero days.  It's time for my teenage attempts at restoration and upgrades to be corrected, and a new home found for the old girl.

Don't be shy......... you can say it
v
























RUSTANG

rustang

rustang

 >:D  >:D  >:D  >:D  >:D

supercharge your air compressor! Hook up your vacuum cleaner in reverse and make that the compressor INTAKE.......LOL
hey! it should work!!!!
(if you are talking about that small a compressor then this will make a percentage difference  :D  )

LOL ;D

Ran in to a few delays with the diff. gears; in the mean time I'm starting to have a go at the bearings.

Three of the races are in "through holes" (differential & input shaft head), and can be extracted with a drift.

The other three (output shaft + input shaft tail), are seated in blind holes. The tool which comes to mind would be a slide hammer with an appropriate sized claw to hook the "back" of the race, and pull it out. Is this the best way to go about it, or is there something better?

Behold, the motivation for my post in Parts (http://www.fierodrivers.com/forum/index.php?topic=2654.0) earlier this week...

I started removing the old bearing races last weekend.

The two for the differential came out easily, got to work on the one at the head of the input shaft, and in one brief, boneheaded moment I managed to wreck the bearing/seal retainer.   :-[

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On the plus side, the differential carrier bearings can be yanked off easily with a two-arm gear puller.  I hope to pick up a set of blade-style bearing separators to deal with the ones on the input & output shafts today.

The case halves are at a local tranny shop to have three final races removed, and the replacement bearing set should arrive today or tomorrow.   :)

New bearings are here; paying for them yesterday was amusing.  Someone pulled the plug on the subdivision which GBS resides in just as we got there, so I paid for the order in the dark.   :D

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It seems that there was a design change, likely between the Duke 4-speeds and the 3.65.

Early four-speeds had separate 3^rd and 4^th output gears, and the gears and LH bearing were simply pressed on.  3^rd gear may have also been pinned by a snap ring; can't remember at the moment.

The 3.65's are a one-piece 3/4 output gear assembly, and combined with the bearing are all held in place with this sucker.  12-point, T-55 or larger, left-hand thread.

Try finding a torx bit larger than a T-50 over-the-counter.   ::)  Princess Auto claims to have up to a T-60 in stock, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed.  If that isn't the correct size, I may have to ambush a roving Snap-on truck.

The side & spider gears came back last week; what you see here, is the diff. with the gears & Phantom Grip unit installed.  The red smudges are assembly lube, not blood.  ;)

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I made a few comments about the cryo process near the end of this thread (http://www.fierodrivers.com/forum/index.php?topic=2488.0).

Installing the PG unit is dead simple.  Remove the pinion gear pin, slide the unit in to place, replace the pin and pop off a pair of clips which kept the plates compressed for the install.

Actually no, they're not at a shop.  :)  I cancelled the shop work after finding what I thought was the tool for the job at Princess Auto, however it can only deal with races with an inside diameter of up to 1.75".  These are closer to 2.25".   :(

So now I'm busy making my own puller for these races.   :-\

Sounds like between the 2 of us (and all of the club members) there is no tool that we can "aquire" to get the job done. 

Different beasts.  :)

The T-60 bit you leant me was to R&R the 12-pointed fastener shown 4 posts up.  With the help of that tool, I was able to install the roller & cage "halves" of all six bearings that weekend. O0

The bearing races which sit in blind holes are a whole new ball game.

I've since discovered that the "official" tool from Kent Moore is $118 US, and is simply a pair of adjustable jaws which one attaches to the end of a slide hammer.  The jaws slip in to a narrow gap between the back of the race and the transmission case, and a few yanks later...

I have the tool partially done now; will post photos of it and the races once complete.  Nothing fancy...  just a modified leg & screw-type gear puller.  The legs will be ground down to fit the back of the races, and the original worm gear is being replaced with a bolt whose thread matches that of my slide hammer.

An example of the blind races.  These two are in the left-most half of the case when installed in the car.  The race on the left is for the tail of the output shaft, the one on the right is for the tail of the input shaft.  The other case half has a third blind race for the head of the output shaft.
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In this photo, the one on the right has already been removed along with the oil deflector which sits behind it.  The oil deflectors are a thin plastic similar to PVC; between the deflector and the relatively thin aluminum behind the race, using a worm gear-type puller is undesireable.

The modified tool... as I said before, it's nothing exciting.  I replaced the worm gear of a 4" puller with a bolt which matches the thread of my slide hammer, and ground down the ends of the legs until they were thin enough to fit behind the race and had a similar curvature.
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It works, but its awkward.  The legs of the puller have a tendency to retract after a few pulls, regardless of how tight the retaining nuts are.  If I ever do this again, I'm going to notch the inside edge of each leg, and use a small turnbuckle or something similar to prevent the legs from collapsing.

In any case...  the bearings are roughly 75% done now.  The next step is to determine the appropriate shim thickness before installing the races in right-hand case half.  Even at this early stage, I can notice an improvement in how well the shafts & diff. sit & spin in their respective locations.

Shimming the bearings requires a set of telescoping gauges and spacers, which can with some patience be found on eBay.  Assembling the gauge set is simple.  The bearing races are put in place over the rollers, the telescoping shafts are placed between the races and the case, and the assembly is bolted together with spacers between the case halves.
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Once assembled and twirled around a bit to ensure that everything is seated nicely, gaps at the base of the telescoping shafts indicate the required shim thickness.
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There's a small amount of "by feel" involved however.  Measuring the gaps is a simple feeler gauge task, however the actual shim sizes needed are "1 size smaller" than the measured gap on the differential and output shaft, and "2 sizes smaller" than the measured gap on the input shaft.  As far as I can tell, 1 size = 0.001".

It's trickier obtaining the shims than than it is using the gauge set.  Supposedly a 5-speed equipped 2000 Chrysler Cirrus uses the same bearings, however none of the dealers I spoke with (including their tranny "experts") knew what I was talking about.   ???

Since the new shim thicknesses I needed were all less than the shims which came out, I had a local machine shop grind the old ones down.

The result, when the input shaft is spun by hand, is so smooth by comparison to the tranny's original state that I almost want to put this behind the 2.8 and do it all over again.   ;)

Don I have two spare Fiero 410 four speeds laying around not being used wiould the parts from one of them be of use to you. Dan

No thanks...  I already have two parts trannies to stub my toes on.  :)

Lousy 410 four speeds can't even give the darn things away. Dan

On with the show...

Sealed, re-assembled, some new external seals, bushings & other hardware, and bolted down on the cradle.  Oh and some media-blasting followed up by rattle cans..   :)

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Something which may be of interest to other 4-speed owners:
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...I was fortunate enough to get my hands on the prototype of a repair piece for the shifter cable bracket (http://www.rodneydickman.com/85-86V-6_4speedcablebracket.html), courtsey of Rodney Dickman (http://).  It's a steel bolt-on bracket, intended for situations where the "ears" on the original bracket have broken off.

well I'm going to watch this if for no other reason to see what other colours you come up with!!
Are you collecting spray cans by any chance? I'll try to save some for you LOL

keep pluggin' Don!

gp

The finall installment for this stage of the project:

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Excuse the washed out photo.  I must really rememmber to use the flash when Mr. Sunshine is pretending to be a backlight.   ::)

Transaxle, cradle, knuckles, axles, and control arms assembled and ready....



...to be covered up and ignored for a year or two.   :-\  't is time to dig a car that's older than me out from under a pile of accumulated odds and ends, and see if I remember how to put it back together.

Circumstances change, priorities change, and I've been having some thoughts lately so I decided to blow the electron dust off this thread and share them.  :)

My original intent was to build the engine up to a silly level before installing it.  The kind of silly which shears OEM axles and cracks transaxle cases.  To ease the hit to the wallet, the engine build was going to be a multi-year affair which wouldn't wouldn't be united with the car until it was complete.

All the while I'd be driving and maintaining the 2.8.

...then something happened.  Well a few things really, but two "somethings" stick out in my mind as being the most significant.

We bought a house.  The silly things always require some level of maintenance, not to mention that we purchased it knowing that some basement renovations would be required before it became ideal.  Heck I've already started to transform a relatively vacant part of the utility/laundry room in to a pantry and somewhere to hide our network server.  What can I say; the garage is currently unheated and as Gary can attest to, a bloody mess.  Framing, plastering, and wiring are my outlet for the moment.   :D  In any case one of the effects of purchasing the house is the lengthening of the engine build's timeline.

The other "something" happened at the last GTG at Dan's place.

He let me take his coupe out for a spin.

I've always considered the 2.8 to be moderately lively for its age, but as we all know they do run out of steam quickly when pushed.  The 3800 which was in Dan's car at the time was unmolested save for swap necessities, and it was one hell of a lot of fun.  I particularly enjoyed thinking "hmmm, that certainly didn't take long to get up to 80", but then wondering why I was overtaking nearly every Tom, Dick & Harry on the road.  It was then that I noticed that he has an imperial speedo in the car--80 was not the 80 which I thought it was.  Give the go pedal a bit of a squeeze, the blower starts to howl, and the needle on the dash climbs quickly & smoothly.  Cool.  8)


I've been thinking about the project a little differently since then, and ya know what?  Funk it.  I don't wanna drive the 2.8 any more.  Not to mention that it reduces the workload if I'm not trying to build one engine while maintaining another.

Other than the necessary swap alterations, maintenance items which go with a 300,000km powerplant, and a bit of detailing, she's getting installed unmolested for now.

I still intend to build it up well beyond stock however, one modification at a time.  This is likely going to mean multiple cradle-drops, but what the hell.  Once you've done one...   ;D


I have to balance this against putting the '68 Stang back together, but with any luck there'll be one more L67-powered Fiero on the road in time for the 25^th.

Sorry Don but I did try to warn you that driving a 3800SC powered Fiero quickly becomes an adiction. If there is any thing you need for the project just give me a call or send me a message. Dan

Yes... I agree with you DAN  O0

Pfffft.... dusty thread.   ;)


While not directly part of the swap, I've always told myself that if the car is going to go faster than it should be able to stop faster as well.  Well that, and if I'm ever going to play on a track I'd rather not have fade-happy brakes to contend with.

Enter the Zettner/11¼" brake mod.   O0  Fronts only for the moment.  Rears will be assembled on the swap cradle & installed with the new drivetrain, hopefully this winter.

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With the stock brakes still on the rear the car is somewhat over-braked in the front, but it's not really noticeable (to me at least) unless you mash the pedal.  Somewhen before next season I'll be disabling the OEM proportioning valve & installing an adjustable prop. valve in the rear circuit so that I can tune the balance to my liking.

In August I finished the assembly of the rear brakes on the cradle.

Rather than use the original rear adapters and the "hockey stick" brackets for the e-brake cables, I opted to purchase a set of redesigned adapters.  The original Zettner design would under some circumstances partially apply the e-brake--the cable routing was snug at rest, and suspension movement could pull it tighter at times.

One could simply swap side & flip the calipers to bring the cable routing back to stock, however some who tried this weren't happy with how close the e-brake cable came to the outer CV boot.  This generation of the adapters provides more clearance between the CV boot & the cable, however it does require a slight Buzz-style modification to the inboard pad in order for it to clear the rotor.

Original vs. redesigned adapter.  Can't see it in this photo, but the caliper mounting holes have been rotated 5° lower in the new piece.
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Original inboard pad on top, modified pad below.  Not necessary to remove the wear indicator if you mount the pads with the indicator on top.
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There's a 15-page thread on PFF (http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/048271.html) discussing various aspects of this brake modification.  I strongly suggest reading it from start to finish if this is something you're considering doing.

When it comes to obtaining the modified brackets, some of the participants in the thread noted above have CAD files if you want to roll your own.  Otherwise I would suggest looking in The Mall on PFF for a thread by rjblaze, who is currently managing group purchases of the adapters.

Two final shots of everything assembled & the "new" e-brake cable routing.  I wasn't able to support the knuckle in its natural position while taking the photo (it's tilted somewhat toward the front), however the e-brake cable routing appears to clear the CV boot nicely with the control arm raised to ride height & the knuckle held near-vertical.

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The adapter which renders the proportioning ability of the OEM combination valve adjustable went in to the car in September.  (Thanks Aaron!)

With my current set-up it's a definite change for the better; can't wait to see what can be done with matching front & rear brakes on the car.

Currently I have the 11.25's on the front, stock brakes on the rear, and rear tires which are 30mm wider than the fronts.  In this particular configuration the rear wheels won't quite lock up on dry pavement with their line pressure maxed out.

Not that may people consider a rear lock-up to be a good thing ;) , but the idea is to find the lock-up point then dial the rears back a bit.

Fixed a bunch of dead image hosting links in old posts, and...

---

To make a long story short, last fall we were poised to purge ourselves of all things Fiero.  We hadn't done a thing with any of our collection in seven or eight years other than slowly get rid of the parts cars.

...then we talked ourselves out of it.  The 84 and 85 which started this whole adventure get to stay.  Which means my L67 build is back on.   8)

A bit of shopping at ZZP over the winter, and a fifth-generation M90 picked-up locally.

Nice to see you are not leaving us! I might be stealing your title of slowest L67 build in history though.

Yay!  This is good for us (forum members).  Maybe I'll post a progress photo too?

Aaron

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