Ottawa Fiero Club Forum

I need help -- figuring out what is wrong with my car. Any input would be greatly appreicated. ( before I burn this....)
I had a new engine put in it.  This car is a 1987 Pontiac GT. It will start and run for a couple of days and than it won't run at all. Replaced core twice - replaced the distributor cap - rotor - had module tested. Tested wiring and it is ok - Still no spark coming from distriutor to number one sparkpulg.  Can any one help with information??  Thanks

Hi Jer,

Di you try to replace the pick-up coil?

Eric

ignition modules are FAMOUS for being a problem with these cars and engines, particularly. I think part of it is simply due to the heat they have to endure. Pennocks etc is full of stories about people having brand new modules going bad and the concensus there is to use GM Delco; don't waste your time with the aftermarket stuff; they can even TEST OK then be bad later!!!  An easy enough and cheap enough fix, but a LOT of people carry a spare AND the tools to replace them on the road.

So you might want to do that simply to know 100% that it is NOT the module. Process of elimination.
Keep us posted on your findings.
 ;)

I am not an expert on the stock fiero at all; hopefully guys like Dan and Aaron and Don and Gary and Tyler and so on will chime in.  These cars are ~20 yrs old and electrical gremlins are to be expected.  Simply 'poor' connections. Once they get to that stage they tend to heat up due to resistance.... and resultant heat makess them simply oxidize that much faster till bingo! no more connection at all. But it will LOOK fine outside the plastic connector........ >:(

But what other diagnostics have you done?
does it sputter? or nothing at all?

Did it run fine at ONE point? ie do you feel 100% confident that the (distributor/ignition) timing is good?

Are the plug wires in the right places? Don't laugh. I once 'supervised' my sister while she put plug wires on her car. I sat and watched her do ONE at a TIME.... distributor to plug..... and she still got two switched! I still don't know how, either...... ::)

do you have fuel pressure? (there is a schraeder valve on the fuel rail but not sure how hard it is to get at) - be careful with it! (spraying gas around....!)

can you hear the fuel pump running? (with the key on)

have you pulled a plug or a few to check for spark?

What is happening with the gauges (if anything) when you are cranking it?  Do you see oil pressure building? Does the tach needle move? anything else?

Have you checked for codes (check engine light on?) if so, what are they?

When was the last time it DID run and what has changed since?
or if it never did run (right) what mods can you figure out were done to it. at ANY time..... and (important!) does it have ANY aftermarket stuff on it?

this stuff should help these other guys/someone come up with ideas.

just re-read your first post.
No spark at all?
I think you might go thru the prev questions tho and post answers for anyone else looking.
There is an 'interlock' of sorts between the fuel pump and the oil pressure sensor and I think that is thru the ECM but not sure. Either way it won't let the car start if there is no oil pressure but I dont' really think that is what you have.

Start at the coils and work back. Also physically check grounds; you simply can't have too many and they HAVE to be in good shape. Again it sounds like something else but this is worth checking.  I suspect some connector; something that is either 100% or nothing.  The contacts inside can be quite corroded and the outside, being plastic, can look fine, so you don't know.

When it DOES run, does it run well or poorly or what is it like?

If it throws codes, can you figure out what they are? There is a way.

Again I am not really up on the fiero in stock form as I have a pretty mixed up thing myself that is still not running by the way so hopefully some of the resident experts will chime in soon.

But post everything that you have triple checked and know 105% is ok; just to help narrow it down.

gp

so no spark even when you START cranking it? (oil pressure situation) Could be the sensor......

well in your searches and checking take apart each plug and connector and see how each 'spade' type connector is inside it. I had chronic problems with a 92 Astro van heater........ it would work for a long time then start acting up. I went thru 3 or 4 heater fan switches; each time it appeared that the switch was faulty.
Then, fed up and suspicious, I took a long look at the plug that goes on the switch.
ONE of the wires was "loose" so that even when the plug was firmly installed, that wire was NOT properly connected to its matching part. The poor/partial connection created heat which in turn actually melted the connector a bit more and allowed the wire to 'slip' a bit more again. Eventually there was almost NO connection.
A simple fix but it took a lot of detailed looking.

So start at the ignition and work backwards.
Check the ECM I guess, somewhere along the line but I am guessing a plug or connector somewhere in the ignition system.
Good luck and I hope you'll post your findings.
gp

This is one of those problems that can test your patience. Sounds to me like its in the wiring but I could be wrong, but its hard to tell without actually looking at the car myself. I am planning on visiting with Gary soon if you like I could drop by and take a look while I am in the area. Have a few spare parts off an 87 GT that I could bring along to try and solve the problem. Dan 

We are an Ottawa (Ontario, Canada) club.

Sounds to me like, you need to find your spark.  Foget about all other problems until you find that spark.  Trace back the power until you find the point where you have it.  Then check all the wires. If you have replaced all the components then it's got to be a contact problem.  That means check wires and switches.  (could be ECU)

If the engine like came on then there is an engien code to read.

Aaron

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Sounds like all of the common spark-related components have been replaced, yet still nothing.  Hmmm...

When the pick-up coil was replaced, did either you or whomever was doing the work happen to note the condition of the stator & magnet on the the distributor shaft?  The magnets have been known to crack on occasion.  Here's a link (http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/058115.html) which includes a photo of the stator & cracked magnet if you need a reference.

There's a two-wire harness which runs between the ignition module & the coil.  Check the condition of the connectors at each end of this harness, and check it for continuity.  Pay close attention to the locking tab at this harness's connection to the coil--it doesn't take much play there to break the circuit.

Also, there is a safety switch that insures that you are in P to start the car (or brake on or whatever.  On an automatic, it is located at or near the base of the shifter.  If the bracket is bent it is possible that the car will not start.

I might be wrong but I think this circuit works with the fuel cut off not the coil.

Let me check to be sure...my bad; it works with the starter.  If the starter will turn over this sircuit is connected.  If the starter will only turn over in P or N then the circuit is working properly.


Aaron

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Changing parts hoping that something will work isn’t really the right way to save any money while doing a repair.  Perhaps you can find someone in your local area with an automatic that is willing to lend you their ECU for a few minutes to see if the car starts.  If it doesn’t then you just saved yourself a bunch of money.

On the other hand you’re still going to spend a lot less than you would if you took your car to a shop.


Aaron

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maybe it would help to step back a bit. Try to think about something different.

did you indicate that you DID have a 'check engine' light at one point? I think that should give a code.

If not, then how about something like fusible links.  What I am getting at is maybe you have to start at the battery end and see where the power STOPS.  By the same line of reasoning, at what point (with ignition ON) DO you or DON"T you have power?
Where the power STOPS, of course, is what you are looking for.  It sounds to me like it isn't getting past a connection somewhere.

If you can't find power anywhere, maybe you need to start at the battery (and alternator?) ends..... but the battery first. That is why I suggested the fusible links. They can and do go bad but just occasionally. So worth checking.

Just ideas but easy to do. Always do the easy stuff first!!!

just re-reading the whole thing. You didn't say anything about codes; don't know where I got that. DID you have an engine light (check engine) at one point?

You said 'After replacing the engine, it would start and run for a couple of days' - then it hasn't run since? Is that correct?  Or was it "on and off again a few times" (intermittent prob)

Who did the swap? Someone who has done that before?

When you say you changed the "CORE" .....(twice) what do you mean by the 'core'?

When you say "tested wiring and it is OK"....... how did you test it? a voltmeter? visual check? ohm meter/continuity? (which is different) and what did you get/see? ie is there power TO the distributor? you have to verify THAT item.
Obviously if there is no power TO the distributor it has 'nothing to work with' so you have to verify that.



What part did you find was bad?
Any info is going to help; the more the better. Even stuff that doesn't seem related; put it all down.

Questions for the other guys: would the oil pressure/fuel pump 'interlock' (auto test for oil pressure) have any bearing on the ignition? (I am thinking no).  Are there any 'sensors on the engine (think about it being replaced) that would cut out the ignition signal if they were bad?

gp

"No" is correct--it only affects the fuel pump.  It's not even an interlock to be honest, just a backup in case the fuel pump relay and/or the ECM's driver circuit for the relay fails.



Sensors & other components which could kill the spark include: every component of the distributor (p/u coil, magnet, pole piece, ign. module, cap, rotor, gear & roll-pin), wiring between the ign. module & coil, wiring between ECM & ign. module, coil, tach filter, ECM, cam, timing chain & gears.

well Don that would be a very good checklist for Jer to go thru; with a VOLT meter, not just a visual or an ohmmeter.

Look for POWER, not just a connection.
Somewhere along the line there has to be 12-13 volts!!! That will be your starting point...........

can you post any pix?
like with the dist cap off; an overall pic and a few closeups.

if you have power TO the distributor but nothing coming out then it is something in there it would look like.

I guess to ask the (sorry) obvious. Is it possible the rotor cap is (missing, even ::) ?) broken, the tab is snapped off and it isn't turning?  I actually had a 'bad' rotor cap once that was so far off it struck the tower connections inside the distributor cap and you could feel it hit them; one of them to the point that it broke off plastic around the electrical connection!!! 

And the gear on the bottom (held by a roll pin) of the dist shaft may be broken and thus the shaft isn't turning?
I have never heard of this happening but you might just take the cap off and crank the car to make sure the shaft IS turning.  Eliminate even the stupid stuff that way.

But it sounds like the distributor at this point now. That narrows it down.

here is a thread on PFF
it may be of use in case you haven't seen it yet.

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/065112.html

but it DID run after the swap, is that right?
at one point?
and then for no apparent reason, it stopped?
Nothing changed in the interim?


Is that right?

When you reply-to or start a new message, you should see a link below the box you type in which says "Additional Options".  Click on it, and a section with a few more options will appear which includes the option to attach up to two files to your message.   (see pic below)


Not sure what you mean by "TBS sensor".   ???  If you're talking about the Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) though, one of the three wires connecting to it should be grounded at all times regardless of whether the battery is connected or not.

*Side note: Using an ohm meter or continuity tester on an ECM-related circuit while the ECM is connected is generally not a good idea.  If the ECM is still connected, you should be checking for voltage only.  Resistance and/or continuity checks with the ECM still connected run the risk of damaging the ECM (ohm meters and/or continuity testers work by applying a voltage to a circuit--apply the wrong voltage or polarity to the wrong place, and you might hurt something).


Let's go way back to the basics for a moment.  Take the distributor cap off, and have someone else crank the engine while you watch for movement of the distributor rotor & shaft.

This is usually one of the first things to check when a car just stops running for no good reason (timing belt or in this case timing chain).  I was assuming that had already been done.  So....was it Jer?

You sould also check your timing in case the chain skiped or something (bad tensioner), anything wrong with the timing chain will be really bad news by the way.


Aaron

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There is a way but it isn’t exact.  If you turn the crank until you can see that one of the pistons are at "top dead center" (look through the opening for the spark plug). The rotor on the distributor should be pointing directly at the wire corresponding to that cylinder.  Even if it’s off a bit the motor should start.

If your rotor turns with the motor, then this isn’t likely your problem.

Aaron

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Damn intermittent problems. They are the WORST.

If your car DID still start and run intermittently, but now has completely quit, then I would hazard to guess that it isn't timing or the distributor (and you have checked the dist already).

It has got to be a bad connection or device. And since you have followed power TO the distributor but are getting nothing AFTER it, then something is up there.  At this point my limited knowledge of thingsfiero pretty much comes to a halt. I just have a general knowledge of cars after this.

My understanding AT THIS POINT is that you have power TO the distributor _ ACTUAL MEASURED VOLTAGE, RIGHT? PLEASE CONFIRM THAT.  If you have simply done a continuity test (ohm meter) then please be specific about this.

You are NOT getting ANY spark from any plugs (make sure it is well grounded!!) when you crank the engine - PLEASE CONFIRM 

you might as well pull all the plugs for now to make cranking easier on everything; ground them all so that they WILL spark......... and that might help you too. It is easy to miss a spark, esp in daylight.....

You found an unusual ground - but not sure what it was at this point.... could you describe what it was (again if I just missed it?) is that fixed now?

The car WILL crank over very well; no problem there. IS THAT RIGHT?

So to sum up, spark seems to be the issue and it is really clearly tracked down to the distributor, with at least 12VDC power going in and nothing coming out. Is that right?

just trying to keep a clear picture going here. 

I am now thinking about the classic grounding problems that people run into with these cars.  You can't have too much grounding and it is a very common issue.
Run more grounds. Make sure there is a really good one NEAR the distributor. Make sure there is a REALLY good one to BOTH heads (for spark grounding); steel is a surprisingly reluctant (pun) conductor; especially when it has a chance to oxidize a LITTLE bit. Or even a washer (under an elect connectiorn) turning a bit or getting the wrong kind of grease (like engine grease or oil!) on it.

So I am thinking about this direction now.  How about the battery too? You can't have TOO much grounding. Run an additional strap from the battery to the block and/or heads. Easy to do, cheap, and can't hurt..........

But answer the questions above if you would so the fierosmart guys can get their thinking caps going.......

Yes the ECM can stop from getting a spark and welding with the battery connected in rare cases will fry the ECM. Basically the coil has plus 12 volts all the time its the groung that is switched off and on timed with the engine that makes her all work. As I offered before but as you pointed out I do not know where you live, I have an ECM from a 1987 GT that ran but had a bottom end knock due to the 10MM 1/4" drive socket I found mangled in the oil pan. I have the distributor that is corroded but also works. You could borrow these to try and see if they fix your problem. I live near Belleville Ont if that is close enough to be of any help. Dan

Yes the ECM could cause your car not to fire.


Absolutely possible, especially with small vehicles and vehicles with bad grounds.  Because of this well known fact, here at my work all trucks have the computers completely disconnected and the battery terminals removed before any welding occurs on the body.  However just because the computer wasn’t disconnected when the exhaust was welded doesn’t mean that, that is the source of your problem.  I would however try really hard to find a computer to plug in and see if that is your problem.

Aaron

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WTF?

When I last checked this thread on the 22nd, there were at least three posts from Jer in here.  Now I only see the original (first) one?   ???

hmmmmmm
wonder if that happened more than once?
I thought i had read stuff then went back and couldn't find it. Of course, I just attributed that to my interesting memory.....LOL ::)

It's more like this

Aaaahhh Guys,   ;D

It's more like I went in and cleaned some of them out.  Just to much (s---.)  to keep reading . Sorry The (D---  >:D) car is still not running. I have to wait for some monies to get the Computer when I get a new computer I will let you know if this piece of car starts.
jer

well Jer
if you take away the history you will really limit what input you can get back...

I didn't think of that.  Just because I am older doesn't mean I have a brain. I did print it all out. If need be,  I will retype everything back in.  I will get practice typing.
I just can't believe after all this -- this car still isn't running and I ran out of money. Good God this sucks......................
I won't take anything out again. If you guys want some of the info back in just let me know. I am just sitting here -- picking my nose. I am disabled so can't go far.....
jer

Jer, where are you located?

Dan (2ML67) offered some hand-on help once before, and I'm willing to do the same depending upon your location & my schedule.

Don
I think he said Michigan or somewhere in that vicinity.  It was in one of the posts.
A bit far for dropping in maybe.

Hey Guys,
I am to far from all of you. I live in Fair Haven, Michigan I have no idea where you are at. I know where Kingsville Ont. is  -- my wife grew up there. But you guys I have no idea.  I would love to have you guys come here. But that is asking way to much from any of you. I appreicate the offer. You guys have helped me so much already. Thank you . -Just wait a little while I will get a computer and put it in and than I will let you all know if this thing starts. ok
jer

Ahh, ok.  I must have missed that earlier.

...though all things considered, Fair Haven isn't that far away.  It's only about 50km SW of Sarnia, ON, which makes it about a 9-10 hour drive from here.  :)  It would have fit in reasonably well with a tentative Ohio trip I was thinking about a while back, but unfortunately I've had to put that off indefinitely.

WELL Guys,

I put in a new computor. ----  It won't start...............
Jer

I'm sorry to hear that.  Are you sure the computer is good?

I think it might be getting to the point that you'll just have to get someone to look at it for you.  But that gets into a sticky situation because there are a lot of places and people you don't want.  It becomes a matter of competence and trust.

If you do feel like continuing, then start back at the start with the new computer.  Go back over all the steps with the new computer plugged in.  Are you still getting no spark?

Aaron

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 :D GOOD ONE AARON  ;D

Thanks

I can't afford to have someone look at this car.  They see fiero and think lots of money. I just had to sit here for a day or two.  I will start again tomorrow. I have too this is all I have.
Jer

Hi Guys ;D,
I wanted all of you to know first-- before I call my kids. The car started.. O0,
I  put the distributor on the kitchen table and took it apart piece by piece -- I went  over it with a magifilying glass and flash light. I knew it had to be there. Everything else is all new.
And than there it was  ;D  the third new pick up coil. The wire that goes right inside the distributor I caught it with the mag glass and there it was a tiny crack in the wire. BINGO BABY...
This B--- runs like a raped ape.................. YES....
Thans Guys for all the help. Believe me you did help me.
Jer

Good to hear!

LMAO

Glad to hear that it's working.

Aaron

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