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Author Topic: fiero308 Buildup thread (LOTS OF PIX!!!! ; ))  (Read 29844 times)
fiero308
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« on: December 10, 2004, 05:55:02 pm »

well with THAT deep breath I decide to start a 'real' thread on what I am doing; it will be off and on again, and might be restricted or limited in some of the comments or info etc etc and there is a reason for that (!?!)..... but right now it looks like there is a REAL possibility that I can start to make serious progress on my car in the next 6 months now. 

That is a BIG deal.  Life; family; career (and busy!) wife; 3 kids in or approaching post secondary education; all the home-related stuff; running my full time business (going on 7 yrs now); trying to stay sane; (fit? what is that???) ALL of that has tapped me for a LOT longer than I figured when I began this trek about 2 yrs ago.  But it wasn't TWO years ago....... it was in 1980 that I decided I wanted to build a mid engine kit car.  It just sort of took me this long to get around to it ...... Shocked
Along with everything else....   
I think I can start to put something up and in a reasonable fashion, keep at it in a way so that there is fairly regular progress.

The subject, for those who don't know or haven't guessed, is an 85 based ferrari 308 kit.  It was ...ummm..... 'complete' when I bought it and brought it back a bit over 2 yrs ago.  It suffered from a LOT of very very poor workmanship; a LOT of out and out SHODDY work and short cuts; a number of things wrong or broken or missing; etc etc etc.  But I figured that I had an idea what I was getting into.  Owning and keeping about 45 to 50 cars running over my 'driving life' so far has to teach me SOMEthing..... Shocked

But it was a starting point.  It would seem that by happy circumstance, (perhaps) the 'inactive' state the car was in had resulted in it being laid up for long periods of time.  It has almost NO rust anywhere.  The body kit is showing stress cracking in a number of places but I have looked at the ones I can get at and feel that these areas can be properly reinforced.  I have confidence in what I can do and I will sub out the work I can't.  I am willing to put in the money it takes to get what I want and I have no delusions that I can or will do this on a shoe string.  I expect to sink 10 to 15 K into this to get it the way I want.

My goal is to build a car that exceeds the stock Ferrari 308 specs in every way (that is of concern to me, anyway) - that is, acceleration, stopping and cornering.  Note that comfort isn't mentioned.  This thing is going to ride like a brick.  I know that.  It is NOT a daily driver by any stretch.  Creature comforts are not a big requirement here.  I would LIKE to do some auto-crossing and hopefully lapping days at some tracks too; all to see just how good a job I really did.  The 308, by the way, is a VERY appropriate kit for the fiero; there is only a fraction of an inch difference between the two.  It was manufactured in the same year range (more or less) as the fiero, and the first batch of them (about 500 IIRC) were in fact fiberglass!!!!  (like mine!)  The engines were transverse v8's.   Not longitudinal as would be thought....   Later ones were 4 valve/cyl.   So it is a good car to 'replicate' a bit.

After a lot of bouncing around on things I decided on the 3.4 dohc engine out of the Z34 (GM) cars.  It is a V6; (obviously) 3.4 liter that was produced in (more or less) 2 versions from 91 thru 97 inclusive. It is a high winding engine that has a dubious reputation for reliability and a number of other things but I have spent a lot of time looking into it and that is my choice.  From 91 to 93 ONLY..... it was available with a heavy duty Getrag 284 5 spd trans that was installed in Luminas, Grand Prix's and Olds Cutlass Supreme Int'l's (as an option) - most were autos of course.  Redline was 7,000 from the factory and the manual version was rated at 220 hp.  Autos were detuned a tad to about 210 to 'protect' the trans as the story goes.

Once the drive train was selected, I decided (getting to know myself a bit over time) that it would be very shrewd of me to have better brakes than the stock fiero if I was going to push it and autocross it and have a better engine etc etc.  I have HAD similar brakes to the fiero in the past and they didn't impress me with...... well, anything.  So brakes became a priority BEFORE putting in a faster engine. 

At the same time, I was cooking up the 'handling' details.  I have long been a fan of racing and racing technology and construction and all that.  Formula 1 rules!!   I bought some more books and read some specific info on frame construction and geometry.  I looked into the car and various boards and what people were doing and decided that I was going to do what I wanted all along..... even if nobody had given it a try (that I could find, anyway).  I was going to put in unequal length A arms ALL around.  Yup. even on the rear end where there were struts........  (it gets better.... LOL)
So THAT became the task for the next (almost!!) two years. 

The body kit is about 4 inches wider than the stock fiero at the front and about 5 inches wider at the rear, so .....along with everything else, I decided that I wanted my wheels and tires to 'finish' fairly flush with the body lines for optimum appearances.  More considerations for geometry and parts and so on. 

Anyway.
I am going to start my thread with this post and add to it (or get logged off!) with pix etc.

Again..
I need a disclaimer.....
I started posting some stuff I did some time ago and got some stunningly ignorant emails from people - let's just say from elsewhere - about doing ie "brake work" using 'soldered connections' or something equivalently stupid.  After a few of those I stopped posting.  So I might not post everything, and regardless, this is what I have done ONLY.  It is NOT a guideline or a recommendation OF ANY SORT for anyone to follow.  Any injury, mishap or result of anyone attempting to replicate any of the work INDICATED on this thread shall be solely at that person's own risk, peril and responsibility.
BRAKE, FRAME, STEERING-RELATED AND OTHER CHASSIS WORK SHOULD ONLY BE PERFORMED BY A QUALIFIED AND APPROVED VEHICLE TECH AND THEN INSPECTED AND APPROVED BY A PROVINCE OR STATE-CERTIFIED AGENCY BEFORE THE VEHICLE IS PUT ON THE ROAD AGAIN AFTER THE WORK IS COMPLETED.

Geez, I hope that is enough. 
There are sadly some either stupid and/or too-cheap people out there who think they can do modifications AND cut corners.  We all see them all the time.  Sorry.  This is NOT REALISTIC and if you think that way, your ignorance is dangerous to yourself and others.

so on with the thread.  and, I guess, is anyone interested?...........


 
« Last Edit: May 24, 2005, 07:37:48 am by fiero308 » Logged
fiero308
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« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2004, 06:10:25 pm »

so where am I at?
I have had the car up on blocks for most of the time I have owned it as I investigated what would/wouldn't work. Lots more doesn't work than DOES......lol

but I have:
- my 3.4 dohc engine with 5 speed and clutch and ECM and wiring harness;
- a spare 3.4 motor for parts/rebuild if/when necessary;
- my 16x8 IROC rims (match my modified hubs); more later...
tires to get my going but more importantly for measuring etc etc as I go
- all my shocks and springs for coil overs all around (shorties; better get more padding in the seats!);
- most of the parts I need for my suspension and brake upgrades; will list them as I go;
-  MIG welder (fixed, now, Don.... Roll Eyes );
- metal bender (not a tube bender) but handy;
- metal band saw; what a GREAT tool!!
- propane heater for winter work;
- carbon monoxide alarm to go with the above!! LOL
- industrial size drill press; another great tool;
- lots of hand tools and power tools;

so I think I am pretty well equipped and ready to make some progress now.

as a bit of background, I haven't exactly spent the last 2 yrs sitting still; I have done TONS of research and testing and playing with various scenarious and prototype suspension setups and finally am ready to go.  (time is always going to be the issue....)

The big IFFFFF
is that IF I get busy (ie with paying work) then I have to do that.  No big surprise there.  My business cycles and I can't turn down work when it comes along.  But that is not going to stop things now I don't think.

The car in the sig pic, by the way, is the exact car that I have.   I am going to be lowering it a bit and putting 16" wheels on it.  The wheels you see are gone; but I think the IROC rims, with the proper 're' finish will look similar enough to keep the 'authenticity' of the car.

More to follow.

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fiero308
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« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2004, 07:32:57 pm »

and to put a bit of a sequence on things (altho a number of items will always be underway in SOME way at any given time).

Front suspension: My big immediate goal is to get the front suspension finished to the point of supporting the car so it can be towed from the rear.
I am currently having overlength (1 5/8" longer) control arms made up at Johnson Welding; Bob (the owner  Wink ) is a long time hot rodder and custom car fabricator and is extremely capable; no issue there.  He has started and may have a tacked up set for me by mid next wk to do a final fit and check.
Once we have that sorted out I will fit the shocks for mounting tabs and get them mounted.  I still have most of the cutting and removal to do on the drivers side for this.
I have to widen the steering rack but that is about 95% done now; got overlength inner tie rods and had them machined to match the stockers.  I only need one new boot for now.  I need to talk to Don G about the rack tho; it isn't the smoothest when I crank it thru its range and want to see what his experience has been.

Left Rear Frame Section: I need to get the car down to Johnson Welding to install this piece.  It has to be a PERFECT mirror image of the right side and I need a better setup than my garage to do this.  I am HOPING Huh to get the car there during the Christmas slowdown.
Ihave to manufacture most, not all, of the frame pieces etc for this side.  The right rear is DONE.  Cheesy 
I need to get 2 new S10 wheel bearing assy's and get them drilled to .580" and have my new Moroso 1/2" studs pressed in.  I was trying to avoid doing custom work on replacement parts, but I don't see how I can avoid this.  The root of the problem is that when you go with a slip on brake rotor (Lebaron - a la the "Zettner" brake upgrade) there isn't enough stud sticking out thru the wheels I have.  And I don't like that.  Not if I am going to be abusing the wheels.... Grin

Brakes: all around.  Got to manufacture brake caliper mounting brackets and install.  I don't see that as hard to do; just time consuming.  I will replace ALL the brake lines; about 1/2 of them are not confidence-inspiring anyway.  I will replace the M/C with a truck M/C as I have a lot more volume in the new system.  I am following a prescribed and reportedly tested method on this; if it needs 'tuning' later I will do that.  I will put on a new e-brake cable and all the hardware; connect it and adjust the rear brakes.

Then.... the engine swap begins.  The 3.4 with all the electrical issues.  But again, it is a prescribed swap; lots of documentation.  I will run into snags with the 284; seems like nobody uses it due to its rarity.  And I have to figure out the shifter.  And cables.  But I am sure there is a way.

Then some misc items come to mind like put in the alum rad, put the battery up front, mount the Z34 ECM inside where the fiero one was; all new guages (right now I am not sure what way I will go on that) etc etc.

So lots to do but it is not impossible once I get this suspension and frame stuff done.

I hurt my back about a wk ago and it has cost me a bit of time but I had machine work going on while resting up.  Got some other parts figured out etc.  So not really lost time.

So that is the general plan, in 'general' sequence....
 Grin
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aaron88
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« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2004, 09:19:54 pm »

Rock on dude.

Aaron

.
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Your only limitations are set from within, by a lack of vision.  But to have vision alone leaves the process idle.  Ergo, without action your thoughts are worthless.
fiero308
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« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2004, 09:27:11 pm »

thanks, Aaron.
obviously the site is back up.  More than I can say for my digital camera....
And I have been off my feet for most of the past wk after hurting my back last sunday.
But progress anyway; maybe not quite as much as I would like but still something.

I was wondering whether I should bother putting this up on this site or not as it is a kit car too, but then decided I am doing the big brakes; some suspension stuff; front battery; engine swap, all new gauges and other stuff, so that is all directly fiero (or at least fiero-CUSTOMIZING) related.  So unless I get complaints, I will post it here.

this week I hope to get my 'tacked-up' longer control arms back for a test fit and try to get my camera cooperating again.  Oh yeah.  Do some PAYING work, too...... Afro
If the control arms look good then they are a GO and I get cracking on other stuff.

I have to verify that the new sleeves (for my poly bushings) are sized ok; I asked him to undersize them a tad for a better interference fit with the bushing.  Will check that tonite and get back to him tomorrow so he can keep moving.
that's it for sunday nite.
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lercs
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« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2004, 09:40:34 pm »

i cant wait to hear more, seeing the car in real life shows alot of work has been done, i hope it all works out

and pictures would be great Cheesy
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fiero308
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« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2004, 09:47:56 pm »

well it LOOKS (  Roll Eyes ) like I may have time in the next 2-4 wks to actually make serious progress on it.
And yes; lots of pix and explanations in with it.  This has been 2 yrs in the thought process but over 20 yrs prior, so it has been building momentum all that time...
so thanks and keep watching; there will be something every week.

I see now why guys say "is anyone watching this thread?".....
they simply want to know if it is worth posting or not.
I will try to make it entertaining and interesting.

and REGULAR.  Hmm. sounds like a laxative.
maybe even GARY will watch it then LOL..... Grin
(another barb thrown....)
 Cheesy
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dguy
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« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2004, 08:43:07 am »

Keep it coming!   Afro
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fiero308
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« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2004, 08:55:01 am »

hi Don
it actually IS nice to know that someone is reading; after looking thru thousands of threads on PFF and 60-v6 and kitcarforum and W body and etc etc etc I have an idea why guys say that; the intent is to spread info and be helpful and you simply want to know if that is happening.

Part of the reason I didn't go out to the mtgs for the longest time cause I didn't have anything to add or contribute but now maybe I will. 

I am also thinking already that I might split this into several threads; there is SO SO SO much to do that a single thread might be too huge and unwieldy.  What do you think? 
1.   Suspension upgrade/alteration etec etc; doing stuff that hasn't been done ANYwhere that I have seen.....  involves the wider track and everything that THAT means....
2.   Brake upgrade all around etc etc etc.  Doing some stuff that others haven't done (that I can find);
3.   Engine swap; done before but almost NOone using the Lumina Getrag 284 trans.  Also in conjunction with a suspension change (Chev S-10 rear whl bearings etc);
4.   Various other stuff; guages swapped in; racing seats; bigger wheels/tires; all the elect that is part of 3, above, new rad and mods; I am thinking about doing SOMEthing about the headlight issue but not sure what yet; and SOMEwhere down the line a potential turbo.... but that is a long way off right now.  I have my hands full.

Comments?  Anyone?  Maybe that is the best idea.
input welcome here.
gp
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GoFast88
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« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2004, 10:19:28 am »

My next large project will be the brakes. Will be eyeing your post for insite.  Keep 'er coming.
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fiero308
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« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2004, 10:40:43 am »

Well Brian
I MAY split it off into various different threads simply because there is so much to do that someone who is only interested in, ie, brakes, won't want to wade thru all the other muck.
But a quickie for you just so you know where I am going with it (brakes, that is).
I am putting on 13" directional vette rotors on the front; will have them cross drilled only I think; with Wilwood Dynalite II's and a decent street pad.  I realize that the Dynalites are not 'dustcapped' but I have talked to a lot of stock car guys who use them (on bigger heavier cars and LEAN on them!) and use them in the DIRT and they have no probs as long as you keep them clean.  As my car will NOT be a daily driver don't think that will pose a problem.
I will need to come up with a custom mounting bracket but that is not a prob.
REARS: I am going to do the so-called Walt Zettner upgrade; Lebaron 11.25" rotors with Caddy calipers; they retain the e-brake and so are street legal.  Ordinary camaro pads fit these, by the way....  (GM product... chuckle)
They have to be swapped from their intended sides as the fiero 'pulls' on the ebrake from the rear instead of from the front but again I don't see that they will be a prob.

I already have all these parts except for the ebrake cable (avail in stainless; I may look at that) and the caliper mounting brackets; (have to be fabbed); so it is just a matter of time to do it.

The rotors (front) DO fit inside my 16" wheels.

fyi
-gp
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fiero308
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« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2004, 02:40:56 pm »

well a bit more movement/progress and some GOOD NEWS too!
checked my poly bushings in the proposed new control arm sleeves; the bottom ones were a tad too tight so I took them back to Johnson Welding and relayed the info to them; they are going to turn out another 5 thou from the sleeve and they can get to work on the rest.  The upper bushings were fine.

Took my steering rack out to Axle Automotive in the Fenton Rd Industrial park and talked to Craig; he remembered me from last yr.... Shocked  !! and they checked my rack and said it was fine!!! but you can't get a replacement 'boot' for the longer end of the rack ; the end with the connection for the steering dampener; he suggested  just removing the dampener and putting the ordinary boot on that end as well.  Je also told me that my 'custom' CV joints (that he made up a yr ago... Roll Eyes  ) will bolt right onto the Lumina axles I will be using.  So a FREE trip.... (THEY don't happen too often!)

Removed the inner tie rod ends from my rack on the wknd; it is a good thing I looked into them anyway..... even tho the rack is in good shape and the boots were fine; no holes, splits or patches of any sort...  this is what one of the ends looked like...

and the ball joint was RUSTY inside too (not just disgusting on the outside...); so it was a useful exercise checking them out.

« Last Edit: December 13, 2004, 02:42:51 pm by fiero308 » Logged
2ML67
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« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2004, 08:30:40 pm »

Can't speak for any one else but this is one thread I plan on reading as it goes along. People helping people what a concept, free info not the expensive kind most shops try to sell. Also helps to know its coming from someone who knows what he's doing not some unknown stranger. Dan 
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fiero308
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« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2004, 08:41:35 pm »

thx Dan
we shall SEE if I know what I am doing or not as this goes along........maybe I will be the one supporting the shops!!LOL!!

the inner tie rod ends were being replaced anyway.  Anyone here driving their car WITHOUT the steering dampener?  What are your impressions?Huh

anyway
here is the before and after of the stock (shorter) and replacement (longer) inner tie rods for the rack (to match my longer control arms).  First pic shows the stock units; Fiero and one from the stock Dodge truck (small one) and other Dodge products with rack and pinion.  The end of the new one has to be machined to match the fiero one of course.....
the fiero one is the top in the second pic....


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fiero308
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« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2004, 08:48:55 pm »

and after getting good ole Rick at ImcoTools in Gloucester to do a bit of magic for me....
(he really made an exact copy......it is SO nice to work with people who enjoy what they do...!!)

(the fiero one, on the right, is the beat-up one....)

and the 2nd pic is my two new longer, machined tie rods with a bunch of stuff.....
the new rack boots (two identical ones) and my new 1/2"x3" Moroso wheel studs; Rick cut them back a bit as required and pressed them into my newly RE-turned (as in turned down again..... rolleyes) hub assemblies.... so the front hubs are READY.....

also shows my new proposed 'sleeves' from Bob Johnson at Johnson Welding; the guy who is making my new longer control arms.  I had these test fitted with my poly bushings this AM and he is going to trim them a bit inside dia., then go ahead with the first control arm set so I can test fit it.  Maybe later this week with luck!!
Last is my new acorn style lug nuts...... nice big studs and nuts to hold things together and help minimize my thoughts of a wheel flying by at highway speeds...... Undecided
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